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date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:34:37 -0700,
group: microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
back
Re: What Microsoft Should Do
> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is MUCH
> higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
To avoid problems created by ignorant users or idiots like myself is very
simple, stop selling your products to them using various means including but
not limited to asking for a competency certificate during purchase, for
example.
I am not sure whose vision is correct, but both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates
shared the same vision for providing ease-to-use computers to their
customers (even though they disagree on strategies and tactics), but many of
their knights shared another common attitude for users are idiots.
The only reason for many IT professionals can have and still keep their jobs
is idiots like myself have been buying and using computers.
But more important, many idiots are fed up with this arrogant attitude, and
that is also one of the major reasons for them to outsource internal IT
department.
Like many other products, it's the idiot users and buyers rule, like it or
not.
"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
news:Ou9IbWkAJHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is MUCH
> higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>
> *While a large number of them are also full-blown idiots, I use the term
> "ignorant user" in a purely literal manner. Of course, the most under-used
> utility in Windows or any other software has always been "Help".
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> http://grystmill.com
>
> "DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote in message
> news:Xns9AFFB1F4CC6E3thisnthatadelphianet@85.214.90.236...
>> "SpiderRIDER" wrote in
>> news:A4E658FC-9019-4A35-BF87-74FC7F31D90B@microsoft.com:
>>
>>> Microsoft
>>> just needs to stop trying to design for the idiot users (which are in
>>> the minority) and design for the smart user's.
>>
>> Note, that minority mean 50% - 1.
>>
>> That means up to 69,999,999 are idiot users....I'm sure it's not *that*
>> high, but there are a lot more idiot users than you think.
>>
>> Why do you think the smart user's have to support all their friends and
>> family that are just lucky enought to be able to turn the damn thing on.
>
>
date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:58:21 -0700
author: xfile
Re: What Microsoft Should Do
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:58:38 +0000 (UTC), DanS
<t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote:
>"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in
>news:Ou9IbWkAJHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>
>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is
>> MUCH higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>
>> *While a large number of them are also full-blown idiots, I use the
>> term "ignorant user" in a purely literal manner. Of course, the most
>> under-used utility in Windows or any other software has always been
>> "Help".
>
>I must ammend my previous statement.
>
>I will agree that 'idiot users' is kind of a harsh label for such a large
>group.....'computer illiterate users' is probably more politically correct.
>
>Although, politically correct is really just a suger-coating anyway. I've
>never been one to try too hard to be PC.
Me neither. <giggle>
Computer illiteracy (maybe being computer shy is better) is a fairly
common affliction for people of my generation. Take one of cousins the
same age as me for example. While otherwise very intelligent (she
speaks three languages fluently) and has been in dozens of counties as
a career employee with the U. S. State department she breaks out in a
cold sweat anytime she tries any new software, yet is she more than
capable of running applications like Word, sending email, surfing the
Web, stuff like that, but try to teach her to use Photoshop at just
it's basic level, or even elementary HTML and she just doesn't get it.
She's still using Windows 98 at home <giggle> She's going to visit
tomorrow, hope she don't freak when she sees Vista.
date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:37:56 -0500
author: Ringmaster
Re: What Microsoft Should Do
I find Windows to be incredibly easy to use. Always have. And so do most
people, once they've been taught at least what they need to know to use and
to properly maintain their systems. Like I said, it's mostly just ignorance,
and the ones who have frequent problems are what I usually call the
"willfully ignorant". It's the ones that refuse to learn, or who learn all
the wrong things from all the idiotic and wrong BS out there and then insist
that they are right when they really haven't a clue, especially when thy are
offering up advice to other users, that I consider Idiots or worse.
Myself, I have two ways of learning: Do all the stupid things I can think of
to break it and then work out how to fix it (usually by reading the manual,
aka Help & Support, and additional KB material, and various other research
tools), or I read the manual first. I'll be honest, I generally start with
the first method. But then, I'm willing and prepared to trash the system
altogether and rebuild it from scratch, a process that in my case, start to
finish, takes days (though, truth be told, I'm never finished building my
system.)
One thing I think you're right about: There are a lot of people out there
who own and/or use PCs that shouldn't. The internet is a community, and if
you're not maintaining your computer properly, especially with regard to
security, then you are a danger to the rest of the internet-using community.
If you aren't willing to learn to do it yourself, then you have to find
someone else to do it for you, for pay or whatever. Same as your
responsibility to maintain your auto in safe condition, your property, etc.
--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com
"xfile" wrote in message
news:OZf7Z8kAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is MUCH
>> higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>
>
> To avoid problems created by ignorant users or idiots like myself is very
> simple, stop selling your products to them using various means including
> but not limited to asking for a competency certificate during purchase,
> for example.
>
> I am not sure whose vision is correct, but both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates
> shared the same vision for providing ease-to-use computers to their
> customers (even though they disagree on strategies and tactics), but many
> of their knights shared another common attitude for users are idiots.
>
> The only reason for many IT professionals can have and still keep their
> jobs is idiots like myself have been buying and using computers.
>
> But more important, many idiots are fed up with this arrogant attitude,
> and that is also one of the major reasons for them to outsource internal
> IT department.
>
> Like many other products, it's the idiot users and buyers rule, like it or
> not.
>
>
>
> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
> news:Ou9IbWkAJHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is MUCH
>> higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>
>> *While a large number of them are also full-blown idiots, I use the term
>> "ignorant user" in a purely literal manner. Of course, the most
>> under-used utility in Windows or any other software has always been
>> "Help".
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> http://grystmill.com
>>
>> "DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9AFFB1F4CC6E3thisnthatadelphianet@85.214.90.236...
>>> "SpiderRIDER" wrote in
>>> news:A4E658FC-9019-4A35-BF87-74FC7F31D90B@microsoft.com:
>>>
>>>> Microsoft
>>>> just needs to stop trying to design for the idiot users (which are in
>>>> the minority) and design for the smart user's.
>>>
>>> Note, that minority mean 50% - 1.
>>>
>>> That means up to 69,999,999 are idiot users....I'm sure it's not *that*
>>> high, but there are a lot more idiot users than you think.
>>>
>>> Why do you think the smart user's have to support all their friends and
>>> family that are just lucky enought to be able to turn the damn thing on.
>>
>>
>
>
date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:40:37 -0700
author: Gary S. Terhune none
Re: What Microsoft Should Do
First of all, it's not a product-specific discussion in this case.
Secondly, your examples are based on your experience and knowledge as an
expert or geek, at least, which isn't necessarily true for a regular user,
and that is the main problem, you don't think from your perspective but from
their perspective.
Education is needed, but the question is to what degree, isn't it? Using
automobile as an example, we need to educate drivers to fasten seat belt,
but it doesn't mean that they need to learn other safety devices such as
reinforced structure and how air begs work and so on. You are in this
profession so you would spend more time than others. Just in case you
didn't notice, there are thousands of other professions that people have to
spend time to learn.
It's a free market, isn't it? Nobody forces you to sell products to
customers whom you'd think are idiots. For those who work in a corporate
environment with the same mentality, it's also the same, and one can quit at
any time for refusing to work with idiots, isn't it so simple?
"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
news:ORC%235TlAJHA.1892@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>I find Windows to be incredibly easy to use. Always have. And so do most
>people, once they've been taught at least what they need to know to use and
>to properly maintain their systems. Like I said, it's mostly just
>ignorance, and the ones who have frequent problems are what I usually call
>the "willfully ignorant". It's the ones that refuse to learn, or who learn
>all the wrong things from all the idiotic and wrong BS out there and then
>insist that they are right when they really haven't a clue, especially when
>thy are offering up advice to other users, that I consider Idiots or worse.
>
> Myself, I have two ways of learning: Do all the stupid things I can think
> of to break it and then work out how to fix it (usually by reading the
> manual, aka Help & Support, and additional KB material, and various other
> research tools), or I read the manual first. I'll be honest, I generally
> start with the first method. But then, I'm willing and prepared to trash
> the system altogether and rebuild it from scratch, a process that in my
> case, start to finish, takes days (though, truth be told, I'm never
> finished building my system.)
>
> One thing I think you're right about: There are a lot of people out there
> who own and/or use PCs that shouldn't. The internet is a community, and if
> you're not maintaining your computer properly, especially with regard to
> security, then you are a danger to the rest of the internet-using
> community. If you aren't willing to learn to do it yourself, then you have
> to find someone else to do it for you, for pay or whatever. Same as your
> responsibility to maintain your auto in safe condition, your property,
> etc.
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> http://grystmill.com
>
> "xfile" wrote in message
> news:OZf7Z8kAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is MUCH
>>> higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>
>>
>> To avoid problems created by ignorant users or idiots like myself is very
>> simple, stop selling your products to them using various means including
>> but not limited to asking for a competency certificate during purchase,
>> for example.
>>
>> I am not sure whose vision is correct, but both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates
>> shared the same vision for providing ease-to-use computers to their
>> customers (even though they disagree on strategies and tactics), but many
>> of their knights shared another common attitude for users are idiots.
>>
>> The only reason for many IT professionals can have and still keep their
>> jobs is idiots like myself have been buying and using computers.
>>
>> But more important, many idiots are fed up with this arrogant attitude,
>> and that is also one of the major reasons for them to outsource internal
>> IT department.
>>
>> Like many other products, it's the idiot users and buyers rule, like it
>> or not.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>> news:Ou9IbWkAJHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is MUCH
>>> higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>>
>>> *While a large number of them are also full-blown idiots, I use the term
>>> "ignorant user" in a purely literal manner. Of course, the most
>>> under-used utility in Windows or any other software has always been
>>> "Help".
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>> http://grystmill.com
>>>
>>> "DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9AFFB1F4CC6E3thisnthatadelphianet@85.214.90.236...
>>>> "SpiderRIDER" wrote in
>>>> news:A4E658FC-9019-4A35-BF87-74FC7F31D90B@microsoft.com:
>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>> just needs to stop trying to design for the idiot users (which are in
>>>>> the minority) and design for the smart user's.
>>>>
>>>> Note, that minority mean 50% - 1.
>>>>
>>>> That means up to 69,999,999 are idiot users....I'm sure it's not *that*
>>>> high, but there are a lot more idiot users than you think.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you think the smart user's have to support all their friends and
>>>> family that are just lucky enought to be able to turn the damn thing
>>>> on.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 17:09:02 -0700
author: xfile
Re: What Microsoft Should Do
"xfile" wrote in message
news:efZu5jlAJHA.3392@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> First of all, it's not a product-specific discussion in this case.
You specifically made it about Windows with your comment. I'm perfectly
aware that it's not just Windows.
> Secondly, your examples are based on your experience and knowledge as an
> expert or geek, at least, which isn't necessarily true for a regular user,
> and that is the main problem, you don't think from your perspective but
> from their perspective.
I'm not sure that's what you wanted to say, but I certainly try to do just
that -- think of issues from the user's point of view, which is why I
install and uninstall many, many dozens of crapware apps, often having to
purchase them, just so I know what they are having to go through. I also
have daughters who are or were into all the worst computer things I can
think of short of porn. Ten different IMs, MySpace, FaceBook, etc., tons of
file-sharing. Putting myself in their shoes when it comes time to fix their
systems, or explain something, it's at the core of what makes me good at
what I do.
> Education is needed, but the question is to what degree, isn't it? Using
> automobile as an example, we need to educate drivers to fasten seat belt,
> but it doesn't mean that they need to learn other safety devices such as
> reinforced structure and how air begs work and so on. You are in this
> profession so you would spend more time than others. Just in case you
> didn't notice, there are thousands of other professions that people have
> to spend time to learn.
There's a lot more to learning to drive than how to hook up your seatbelt.
We spend weeks, at least, just to teach newbies the fundamentals of driving.
And then there's things like checking your oil (or at least remembering to
have someone else do it) regularly. Likewise, there are a few things every
computer user should be taught at the very start about performing simple
maintenance tasks, or if they can't or don't want to do that, just like
checking a car's oil, they need to get someone else to do it for them,
whether hired or coerced. Otherwise, just like a car that runs out of oil,
they will suddenly find themselves in a jam that was totally preventable.
> It's a free market, isn't it? Nobody forces you to sell products to
> customers whom you'd think are idiots. For those who work in a corporate
> environment with the same mentality, it's also the same, and one can quit
> at any time for refusing to work with idiots, isn't it so simple?
First, you seem to have the usual mistaken notion that MVPs work for MS.
It's actually more like the opposite. We are more often the consumers'
representatives before Microsoft. The term idiot is an unfortunate one
derived from "idiot-proofing" which is what Microsoft appears to be trying
to specialize in, meanwhile just making it more difficult for ITs to deal
with the results. I try to apply it only to "willfully ignorant" persons,
the ones for who the term "cluestick" was invented. In my mind, most users,
including most of my clients, even my Dad, who's been using computers much
longer than I have, are simply ignorant and in need of teaching. But we seem
to be a society that doesn't have time to learn much anymore (if at all.) We
just want to turn the key and drive, without any concern for the machine,
which is why cars are now highly idiot-proofed, also.
I don't use Windows or most other applications because I like them, I use
them because I have to, mostly in order to know what my clients (however you
want to define that cohort) are seeing and trying to deal with, and how
those applications interact and behave themselves within the Windows
environment, etc. It's a combination of hobby and duty.
--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com
> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
> news:ORC%235TlAJHA.1892@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>I find Windows to be incredibly easy to use. Always have. And so do most
>>people, once they've been taught at least what they need to know to use
>>and to properly maintain their systems. Like I said, it's mostly just
>>ignorance, and the ones who have frequent problems are what I usually call
>>the "willfully ignorant". It's the ones that refuse to learn, or who learn
>>all the wrong things from all the idiotic and wrong BS out there and then
>>insist that they are right when they really haven't a clue, especially
>>when thy are offering up advice to other users, that I consider Idiots or
>>worse.
>>
>> Myself, I have two ways of learning: Do all the stupid things I can think
>> of to break it and then work out how to fix it (usually by reading the
>> manual, aka Help & Support, and additional KB material, and various other
>> research tools), or I read the manual first. I'll be honest, I generally
>> start with the first method. But then, I'm willing and prepared to trash
>> the system altogether and rebuild it from scratch, a process that in my
>> case, start to finish, takes days (though, truth be told, I'm never
>> finished building my system.)
>>
>> One thing I think you're right about: There are a lot of people out there
>> who own and/or use PCs that shouldn't. The internet is a community, and
>> if you're not maintaining your computer properly, especially with regard
>> to security, then you are a danger to the rest of the internet-using
>> community. If you aren't willing to learn to do it yourself, then you
>> have to find someone else to do it for you, for pay or whatever. Same as
>> your responsibility to maintain your auto in safe condition, your
>> property, etc.
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> http://grystmill.com
>>
>> "xfile" wrote in message
>> news:OZf7Z8kAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is
>>>> MUCH higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>>
>>>
>>> To avoid problems created by ignorant users or idiots like myself is
>>> very simple, stop selling your products to them using various means
>>> including but not limited to asking for a competency certificate during
>>> purchase, for example.
>>>
>>> I am not sure whose vision is correct, but both Steve Jobs and Bill
>>> Gates shared the same vision for providing ease-to-use computers to
>>> their customers (even though they disagree on strategies and tactics),
>>> but many of their knights shared another common attitude for users are
>>> idiots.
>>>
>>> The only reason for many IT professionals can have and still keep their
>>> jobs is idiots like myself have been buying and using computers.
>>>
>>> But more important, many idiots are fed up with this arrogant attitude,
>>> and that is also one of the major reasons for them to outsource internal
>>> IT department.
>>>
>>> Like many other products, it's the idiot users and buyers rule, like it
>>> or not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>> news:Ou9IbWkAJHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is
>>>> MUCH higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>>>
>>>> *While a large number of them are also full-blown idiots, I use the
>>>> term "ignorant user" in a purely literal manner. Of course, the most
>>>> under-used utility in Windows or any other software has always been
>>>> "Help".
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>> http://grystmill.com
>>>>
>>>> "DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns9AFFB1F4CC6E3thisnthatadelphianet@85.214.90.236...
>>>>> "SpiderRIDER" wrote in
>>>>> news:A4E658FC-9019-4A35-BF87-74FC7F31D90B@microsoft.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>> just needs to stop trying to design for the idiot users (which are in
>>>>>> the minority) and design for the smart user's.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note, that minority mean 50% - 1.
>>>>>
>>>>> That means up to 69,999,999 are idiot users....I'm sure it's not
>>>>> *that*
>>>>> high, but there are a lot more idiot users than you think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you think the smart user's have to support all their friends
>>>>> and
>>>>> family that are just lucky enought to be able to turn the damn thing
>>>>> on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:14:55 -0700
author: Gary S. Terhune none
Re: What Microsoft Should Do
Hi,
> You specifically made it about Windows with your comment.
I didn't specifically make the comment about Windows or kindly point me to
where did I make that comment?
If you meant by what I said about "[...]stop selling your products to them",
that applies to all products including IT software and hardware products. I
reminded you that it's not a product-specfic discussion because what you
said "I find Windows to be incredibly easy to use. Always have. And so do
most people, once they've been taught at least what they need to know to
use[...]".
You don't even realize that you have directed every issue to liking or
disliking Windows.
I also used SJ and BG as an example for how they envisioned the products
should be and where are those discrepancies for people working for them or
at other companies but thought that they are working for them.
> Putting myself in their shoes when it comes time to fix their systems, or
> explain something, it's at the core of what makes me good at what I do.
If you really believe what you said, you won't even have a slice of thought
about they are idiots. You will understand perfectly for why non-techies
have no interests, freaking time and resources to go through many troubles
for which a geek would think as an usual routine. You will think that they
deserved to know nothing and that is exactly the reason for why we need
professionals.
> We spend weeks, at least, just to teach newbies the fundamentals of
> driving.
As mentioned earlier, if that's a general requirement for using a computer,
ask for a compentency certificate, such as a driver's license, during the
purchase which is a normal practice for many specialized products.
> And then there's things like checking your oil (or at least remembering to
> have someone else do it) regularly. Likewise, there are a few things every
> computer user should be taught at the very start about performing simple
> maintenance tasks, or if they can't or don't want to do that, just like
> checking a car's oil, they need to get someone else to do it for them,
> whether hired or coerced. Otherwise, just like a car that runs out of oil,
> they will suddenly find themselves in a jam that was totally preventable.
Yes, you are now talking rationally for understanding why people don't need
to be a mechanic to use a car and will you also think them as an idiot if
they don't know how to change oil?
> First, you seem to have the usual mistaken notion that MVPs work for MS.
I understand very well that MVPs are not official employees but many of you
are their channel partners. But then again, it's irrelevant in this case.
> We are more often the consumers' representatives before Microsoft.
I have to say, that is not exactly the image in my mind for many MVPs. For
those who made general comments with regard to products, I rarely saw a
balanced view.
> The term idiot is an unfortunate one derived from "idiot-proofing" which
> is what Microsoft appears to be trying to specialize in, meanwhile just
> making it more difficult for ITs to deal with the results.
I don't know how MS call it, but many of us call it "fool-proofing", and as
far as I know, many of those in the earlier days were for technicians since
most end users would only buy finished products and they normally don't
change components.
>In my mind, most users,
> including most of my clients, even my Dad, who's been using computers much
> longer than I have, are simply ignorant and in need of teaching. But we
> seem to be a society that doesn't have time to learn much anymore (if at
> all.) We just want to turn the key and drive, without any concern for the
> machine, which is why cars are now highly idiot-proofed, also.
You still don't get it. Who will need professionals like you if every
customer and end user is as well-trained as you? There will be no place for
your (or other IT professional's) existence.
Professionals in all fields are trained to assist those who know less not to
look down on them and that is my point.
And yes, cars are now "highly idiot-proofed" because many (especially
outside IT fields) happen to believe - The best talent makes complicated
things simple and the worst makes simple things complicated.
"Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
news:uJvTwRpAJHA.3756@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> "xfile" wrote in message
> news:efZu5jlAJHA.3392@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> First of all, it's not a product-specific discussion in this case.
>
> You specifically made it about Windows with your comment. I'm perfectly
> aware that it's not just Windows.
>
>> Secondly, your examples are based on your experience and knowledge as an
>> expert or geek, at least, which isn't necessarily true for a regular
>> user, and that is the main problem, you don't think from your perspective
>> but from their perspective.
>
> I'm not sure that's what you wanted to say, but I certainly try to do just
> that -- think of issues from the user's point of view, which is why I
> install and uninstall many, many dozens of crapware apps, often having to
> purchase them, just so I know what they are having to go through. I also
> have daughters who are or were into all the worst computer things I can
> think of short of porn. Ten different IMs, MySpace, FaceBook, etc., tons
> of file-sharing. Putting myself in their shoes when it comes time to fix
> their systems, or explain something, it's at the core of what makes me
> good at what I do.
>
>> Education is needed, but the question is to what degree, isn't it? Using
>> automobile as an example, we need to educate drivers to fasten seat belt,
>> but it doesn't mean that they need to learn other safety devices such as
>> reinforced structure and how air begs work and so on. You are in this
>> profession so you would spend more time than others. Just in case you
>> didn't notice, there are thousands of other professions that people have
>> to spend time to learn.
>
> There's a lot more to learning to drive than how to hook up your seatbelt.
> We spend weeks, at least, just to teach newbies the fundamentals of
> driving. And then there's things like checking your oil (or at least
> remembering to have someone else do it) regularly. Likewise, there are a
> few things every computer user should be taught at the very start about
> performing simple maintenance tasks, or if they can't or don't want to do
> that, just like checking a car's oil, they need to get someone else to do
> it for them, whether hired or coerced. Otherwise, just like a car that
> runs out of oil, they will suddenly find themselves in a jam that was
> totally preventable.
>
>> It's a free market, isn't it? Nobody forces you to sell products to
>> customers whom you'd think are idiots. For those who work in a corporate
>> environment with the same mentality, it's also the same, and one can quit
>> at any time for refusing to work with idiots, isn't it so simple?
>
> First, you seem to have the usual mistaken notion that MVPs work for MS.
> It's actually more like the opposite. We are more often the consumers'
> representatives before Microsoft. The term idiot is an unfortunate one
> derived from "idiot-proofing" which is what Microsoft appears to be trying
> to specialize in, meanwhile just making it more difficult for ITs to deal
> with the results. I try to apply it only to "willfully ignorant" persons,
> the ones for who the term "cluestick" was invented. In my mind, most
> users, including most of my clients, even my Dad, who's been using
> computers much longer than I have, are simply ignorant and in need of
> teaching. But we seem to be a society that doesn't have time to learn much
> anymore (if at all.) We just want to turn the key and drive, without any
> concern for the machine, which is why cars are now highly idiot-proofed,
> also.
>
> I don't use Windows or most other applications because I like them, I use
> them because I have to, mostly in order to know what my clients (however
> you want to define that cohort) are seeing and trying to deal with, and
> how those applications interact and behave themselves within the Windows
> environment, etc. It's a combination of hobby and duty.
>
> --
> Gary S. Terhune
> MS-MVP Shell/User
> http://grystmill.com
>
>
>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>> news:ORC%235TlAJHA.1892@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>I find Windows to be incredibly easy to use. Always have. And so do most
>>>people, once they've been taught at least what they need to know to use
>>>and to properly maintain their systems. Like I said, it's mostly just
>>>ignorance, and the ones who have frequent problems are what I usually
>>>call the "willfully ignorant". It's the ones that refuse to learn, or who
>>>learn all the wrong things from all the idiotic and wrong BS out there
>>>and then insist that they are right when they really haven't a clue,
>>>especially when thy are offering up advice to other users, that I
>>>consider Idiots or worse.
>>>
>>> Myself, I have two ways of learning: Do all the stupid things I can
>>> think of to break it and then work out how to fix it (usually by reading
>>> the manual, aka Help & Support, and additional KB material, and various
>>> other research tools), or I read the manual first. I'll be honest, I
>>> generally start with the first method. But then, I'm willing and
>>> prepared to trash the system altogether and rebuild it from scratch, a
>>> process that in my case, start to finish, takes days (though, truth be
>>> told, I'm never finished building my system.)
>>>
>>> One thing I think you're right about: There are a lot of people out
>>> there who own and/or use PCs that shouldn't. The internet is a
>>> community, and if you're not maintaining your computer properly,
>>> especially with regard to security, then you are a danger to the rest of
>>> the internet-using community. If you aren't willing to learn to do it
>>> yourself, then you have to find someone else to do it for you, for pay
>>> or whatever. Same as your responsibility to maintain your auto in safe
>>> condition, your property, etc.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>> http://grystmill.com
>>>
>>> "xfile" wrote in message
>>> news:OZf7Z8kAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is
>>>>> MUCH higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To avoid problems created by ignorant users or idiots like myself is
>>>> very simple, stop selling your products to them using various means
>>>> including but not limited to asking for a competency certificate during
>>>> purchase, for example.
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure whose vision is correct, but both Steve Jobs and Bill
>>>> Gates shared the same vision for providing ease-to-use computers to
>>>> their customers (even though they disagree on strategies and tactics),
>>>> but many of their knights shared another common attitude for users are
>>>> idiots.
>>>>
>>>> The only reason for many IT professionals can have and still keep their
>>>> jobs is idiots like myself have been buying and using computers.
>>>>
>>>> But more important, many idiots are fed up with this arrogant attitude,
>>>> and that is also one of the major reasons for them to outsource
>>>> internal IT department.
>>>>
>>>> Like many other products, it's the idiot users and buyers rule, like it
>>>> or not.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>> news:Ou9IbWkAJHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is
>>>>> MUCH higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>>>>
>>>>> *While a large number of them are also full-blown idiots, I use the
>>>>> term "ignorant user" in a purely literal manner. Of course, the most
>>>>> under-used utility in Windows or any other software has always been
>>>>> "Help".
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>> http://grystmill.com
>>>>>
>>>>> "DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Xns9AFFB1F4CC6E3thisnthatadelphianet@85.214.90.236...
>>>>>> "SpiderRIDER" wrote in
>>>>>> news:A4E658FC-9019-4A35-BF87-74FC7F31D90B@microsoft.com:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>> just needs to stop trying to design for the idiot users (which are
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the minority) and design for the smart user's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note, that minority mean 50% - 1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That means up to 69,999,999 are idiot users....I'm sure it's not
>>>>>> *that*
>>>>>> high, but there are a lot more idiot users than you think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why do you think the smart user's have to support all their friends
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> family that are just lucky enought to be able to turn the damn thing
>>>>>> on.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 04:04:35 -0700
author: xfile
Re: What Microsoft Should Do
You didn't. It was a mistake. Tagged along from another thread.
--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
http://grystmill.com
"xfile" wrote in message
news:ecosJSrAJHA.5316@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Hi,
>
>> You specifically made it about Windows with your comment.
>
> I didn't specifically make the comment about Windows or kindly point me to
> where did I make that comment?
>
> If you meant by what I said about "[...]stop selling your products to
> them", that applies to all products including IT software and hardware
> products. I reminded you that it's not a product-specfic discussion
> because what you said "I find Windows to be incredibly easy to use. Always
> have. And so do most people, once they've been taught at least what they
> need to know to use[...]".
>
> You don't even realize that you have directed every issue to liking or
> disliking Windows.
>
> I also used SJ and BG as an example for how they envisioned the products
> should be and where are those discrepancies for people working for them or
> at other companies but thought that they are working for them.
>
>> Putting myself in their shoes when it comes time to fix their systems, or
>> explain something, it's at the core of what makes me good at what I do.
>
> If you really believe what you said, you won't even have a slice of
> thought
> about they are idiots. You will understand perfectly for why non-techies
> have no interests, freaking time and resources to go through many troubles
> for which a geek would think as an usual routine. You will think that
> they
> deserved to know nothing and that is exactly the reason for why we need
> professionals.
>
>> We spend weeks, at least, just to teach newbies the fundamentals of
>> driving.
>
> As mentioned earlier, if that's a general requirement for using a
> computer,
> ask for a compentency certificate, such as a driver's license, during the
> purchase which is a normal practice for many specialized products.
>
>> And then there's things like checking your oil (or at least remembering
>> to
>> have someone else do it) regularly. Likewise, there are a few things
>> every
>> computer user should be taught at the very start about performing simple
>> maintenance tasks, or if they can't or don't want to do that, just like
>> checking a car's oil, they need to get someone else to do it for them,
>> whether hired or coerced. Otherwise, just like a car that runs out of
>> oil,
>> they will suddenly find themselves in a jam that was totally preventable.
>
> Yes, you are now talking rationally for understanding why people don't
> need
> to be a mechanic to use a car and will you also think them as an idiot if
> they don't know how to change oil?
>
>> First, you seem to have the usual mistaken notion that MVPs work for MS.
>
> I understand very well that MVPs are not official employees but many of
> you
> are their channel partners. But then again, it's irrelevant in this case.
>
>> We are more often the consumers' representatives before Microsoft.
>
> I have to say, that is not exactly the image in my mind for many MVPs.
> For
> those who made general comments with regard to products, I rarely saw a
> balanced view.
>
>> The term idiot is an unfortunate one derived from "idiot-proofing" which
>> is what Microsoft appears to be trying to specialize in, meanwhile just
>> making it more difficult for ITs to deal with the results.
>
> I don't know how MS call it, but many of us call it "fool-proofing", and
> as
> far as I know, many of those in the earlier days were for technicians
> since
> most end users would only buy finished products and they normally don't
> change components.
>
> >In my mind, most users,
>> including most of my clients, even my Dad, who's been using computers
>> much
>> longer than I have, are simply ignorant and in need of teaching. But we
>> seem to be a society that doesn't have time to learn much anymore (if at
>> all.) We just want to turn the key and drive, without any concern for the
>> machine, which is why cars are now highly idiot-proofed, also.
>
> You still don't get it. Who will need professionals like you if every
> customer and end user is as well-trained as you? There will be no place
> for
> your (or other IT professional's) existence.
>
> Professionals in all fields are trained to assist those who know less not
> to
> look down on them and that is my point.
>
> And yes, cars are now "highly idiot-proofed" because many (especially
> outside IT fields) happen to believe - The best talent makes complicated
> things simple and the worst makes simple things complicated.
>
>
> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
> news:uJvTwRpAJHA.3756@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>> "xfile" wrote in message
>> news:efZu5jlAJHA.3392@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>> First of all, it's not a product-specific discussion in this case.
>>
>> You specifically made it about Windows with your comment. I'm perfectly
>> aware that it's not just Windows.
>>
>>> Secondly, your examples are based on your experience and knowledge as an
>>> expert or geek, at least, which isn't necessarily true for a regular
>>> user, and that is the main problem, you don't think from your
>>> perspective
>>> but from their perspective.
>>
>> I'm not sure that's what you wanted to say, but I certainly try to do
>> just
>> that -- think of issues from the user's point of view, which is why I
>> install and uninstall many, many dozens of crapware apps, often having to
>> purchase them, just so I know what they are having to go through. I also
>> have daughters who are or were into all the worst computer things I can
>> think of short of porn. Ten different IMs, MySpace, FaceBook, etc., tons
>> of file-sharing. Putting myself in their shoes when it comes time to fix
>> their systems, or explain something, it's at the core of what makes me
>> good at what I do.
>>
>>> Education is needed, but the question is to what degree, isn't it?
>>> Using
>>> automobile as an example, we need to educate drivers to fasten seat
>>> belt,
>>> but it doesn't mean that they need to learn other safety devices such as
>>> reinforced structure and how air begs work and so on. You are in this
>>> profession so you would spend more time than others. Just in case you
>>> didn't notice, there are thousands of other professions that people have
>>> to spend time to learn.
>>
>> There's a lot more to learning to drive than how to hook up your
>> seatbelt.
>> We spend weeks, at least, just to teach newbies the fundamentals of
>> driving. And then there's things like checking your oil (or at least
>> remembering to have someone else do it) regularly. Likewise, there are a
>> few things every computer user should be taught at the very start about
>> performing simple maintenance tasks, or if they can't or don't want to do
>> that, just like checking a car's oil, they need to get someone else to do
>> it for them, whether hired or coerced. Otherwise, just like a car that
>> runs out of oil, they will suddenly find themselves in a jam that was
>> totally preventable.
>>
>>> It's a free market, isn't it? Nobody forces you to sell products to
>>> customers whom you'd think are idiots. For those who work in a
>>> corporate
>>> environment with the same mentality, it's also the same, and one can
>>> quit
>>> at any time for refusing to work with idiots, isn't it so simple?
>>
>> First, you seem to have the usual mistaken notion that MVPs work for MS.
>> It's actually more like the opposite. We are more often the consumers'
>> representatives before Microsoft. The term idiot is an unfortunate one
>> derived from "idiot-proofing" which is what Microsoft appears to be
>> trying
>> to specialize in, meanwhile just making it more difficult for ITs to deal
>> with the results. I try to apply it only to "willfully ignorant" persons,
>> the ones for who the term "cluestick" was invented. In my mind, most
>> users, including most of my clients, even my Dad, who's been using
>> computers much longer than I have, are simply ignorant and in need of
>> teaching. But we seem to be a society that doesn't have time to learn
>> much
>> anymore (if at all.) We just want to turn the key and drive, without any
>> concern for the machine, which is why cars are now highly idiot-proofed,
>> also.
>>
>> I don't use Windows or most other applications because I like them, I use
>> them because I have to, mostly in order to know what my clients (however
>> you want to define that cohort) are seeing and trying to deal with, and
>> how those applications interact and behave themselves within the Windows
>> environment, etc. It's a combination of hobby and duty.
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> http://grystmill.com
>>
>>
>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>> news:ORC%235TlAJHA.1892@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>>>>I find Windows to be incredibly easy to use. Always have. And so do most
>>>>people, once they've been taught at least what they need to know to use
>>>>and to properly maintain their systems. Like I said, it's mostly just
>>>>ignorance, and the ones who have frequent problems are what I usually
>>>>call the "willfully ignorant". It's the ones that refuse to learn, or
>>>>who
>>>>learn all the wrong things from all the idiotic and wrong BS out there
>>>>and then insist that they are right when they really haven't a clue,
>>>>especially when thy are offering up advice to other users, that I
>>>>consider Idiots or worse.
>>>>
>>>> Myself, I have two ways of learning: Do all the stupid things I can
>>>> think of to break it and then work out how to fix it (usually by
>>>> reading
>>>> the manual, aka Help & Support, and additional KB material, and various
>>>> other research tools), or I read the manual first. I'll be honest, I
>>>> generally start with the first method. But then, I'm willing and
>>>> prepared to trash the system altogether and rebuild it from scratch, a
>>>> process that in my case, start to finish, takes days (though, truth be
>>>> told, I'm never finished building my system.)
>>>>
>>>> One thing I think you're right about: There are a lot of people out
>>>> there who own and/or use PCs that shouldn't. The internet is a
>>>> community, and if you're not maintaining your computer properly,
>>>> especially with regard to security, then you are a danger to the rest
>>>> of
>>>> the internet-using community. If you aren't willing to learn to do it
>>>> yourself, then you have to find someone else to do it for you, for pay
>>>> or whatever. Same as your responsibility to maintain your auto in safe
>>>> condition, your property, etc.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>> http://grystmill.com
>>>>
>>>> "xfile" wrote in message
>>>> news:OZf7Z8kAJHA.4992@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is
>>>>>> MUCH higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To avoid problems created by ignorant users or idiots like myself is
>>>>> very simple, stop selling your products to them using various means
>>>>> including but not limited to asking for a competency certificate
>>>>> during
>>>>> purchase, for example.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure whose vision is correct, but both Steve Jobs and Bill
>>>>> Gates shared the same vision for providing ease-to-use computers to
>>>>> their customers (even though they disagree on strategies and tactics),
>>>>> but many of their knights shared another common attitude for users are
>>>>> idiots.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only reason for many IT professionals can have and still keep
>>>>> their
>>>>> jobs is idiots like myself have been buying and using computers.
>>>>>
>>>>> But more important, many idiots are fed up with this arrogant
>>>>> attitude,
>>>>> and that is also one of the major reasons for them to outsource
>>>>> internal IT department.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like many other products, it's the idiot users and buyers rule, like
>>>>> it
>>>>> or not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Ou9IbWkAJHA.4040@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> The number of ignorant users* of all PCs (Windows, Mac or Linux) is
>>>>>> MUCH higher than 50% of the total. More like 99.9999% or even more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *While a large number of them are also full-blown idiots, I use the
>>>>>> term "ignorant user" in a purely literal manner. Of course, the most
>>>>>> under-used utility in Windows or any other software has always been
>>>>>> "Help".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>>>> http://grystmill.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:Xns9AFFB1F4CC6E3thisnthatadelphianet@85.214.90.236...
>>>>>>> "SpiderRIDER" wrote in
>>>>>>> news:A4E658FC-9019-4A35-BF87-74FC7F31D90B@microsoft.com:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>>>> just needs to stop trying to design for the idiot users (which are
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the minority) and design for the smart user's.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note, that minority mean 50% - 1.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That means up to 69,999,999 are idiot users....I'm sure it's not
>>>>>>> *that*
>>>>>>> high, but there are a lot more idiot users than you think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do you think the smart user's have to support all their friends
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> family that are just lucky enought to be able to turn the damn thing
>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 07:45:02 -0700
author: Gary S. Terhune none
|
|
