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date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:30:58 -0400,
group: microsoft.public.msdn.general
back
Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer
At the time I downloaded Sharepoint Designer my subscription only had
Sharepoint Designer (Expression Web was not available). I have recently
started using it (I only do a few webs a year). Microsoft has stated that
Sharepoint Designer is a superset of Expression Web - you can do everything
you can do in Expression Web plus some sharepoint stuff.
Well you can do everything EXCEPT create a new NON Sharepoint website
using a template. Who is Microsoft trying to fool. These two programs are
99% identical. They have the same code base, same layout, same help file,
and same setup program (with very minor differences). The setup program is
so identical that it actually DOES install all the templates but Sharepoint
Designer is crippled so that it can't use them. They even left the option to
create a new website using a template in the program. They just suppressed
the templates so that you can't select any.
Does Microsoft expect their customers to have to buy/use both programs -
you could run one of these programs all day long and unless you look in the
title bar, you wouldn't know which program you were using. You need
Sharepoint designer if you are doing sharepoint sites, master pages, etc.
but why cripple it so you can't do a plain simple website. Just buy another
copy of the same identical program which has the sharepoint stuff turned off
and the templates turned on. I can understand having a premium program for
Sharepoint and a separate less feature rich program for non Sharepoint
sites, but the premium program should include the features of the less
feature rich program.
Anyway, for anyone else that is fed up with this nonsense - download a
trial copy of Expression Web - Create 19 websites using the 19 included
templates. Then to use a template in Sharepoint Designer, open one of the
templated websites and publish it to your local web site. You get the same
exact thing as if you would have created the site in Sharepoint Designer
using the missing templates (which really aren't missing).
Russ
date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:30:58 -0400
author: Russell Stevens am
Re: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer
Hi,
You can create non SP websites with SPD, so you appear to be saying the
only issue is not being able to use the Microsoft designed templates, is
that right? My guess is that most people designing their own websites
from scratch would not want to use Microsoft's templates, but it's also
possible the templates were originally designed with the assumption that
SP features would be available, and therefore may not be suitable for
web servers that don't run the extensions?
Do they expect you to buy both? My guess is "yes". As usual we have
massive (and pointless) duplication.
Russell Stevens wrote:
> At the time I downloaded Sharepoint Designer my subscription only had
> Sharepoint Designer (Expression Web was not available). I have recently
> started using it (I only do a few webs a year). Microsoft has stated
> that Sharepoint Designer is a superset of Expression Web - you can do
> everything you can do in Expression Web plus some sharepoint stuff.
>
> Well you can do everything EXCEPT create a new NON Sharepoint website
> using a template. Who is Microsoft trying to fool. These two programs
> are 99% identical. They have the same code base, same layout, same help
> file, and same setup program (with very minor differences). The setup
> program is so identical that it actually DOES install all the templates
> but Sharepoint Designer is crippled so that it can't use them. They even
> left the option to create a new website using a template in the program.
> They just suppressed the templates so that you can't select any.
>
> Does Microsoft expect their customers to have to buy/use both programs
> - you could run one of these programs all day long and unless you look
> in the title bar, you wouldn't know which program you were using. You
> need Sharepoint designer if you are doing sharepoint sites, master
> pages, etc. but why cripple it so you can't do a plain simple website.
> Just buy another copy of the same identical program which has the
> sharepoint stuff turned off and the templates turned on. I can
> understand having a premium program for Sharepoint and a separate less
> feature rich program for non Sharepoint sites, but the premium program
> should include the features of the less feature rich program.
>
> Anyway, for anyone else that is fed up with this nonsense - download a
> trial copy of Expression Web - Create 19 websites using the 19 included
> templates. Then to use a template in Sharepoint Designer, open one of
> the templated websites and publish it to your local web site. You get
> the same exact thing as if you would have created the site in Sharepoint
> Designer using the missing templates (which really aren't missing).
>
> Russ
--
Gerry Hickman (London UK)
date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:22:58 +0100
author: Gerry Hickman am
Re: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer
Gerry,
The normal templates they supply but disable require no SP features on the
server. After all, they are used in Expression Web which is a "standards
based web development program". You click File, New, WebSite, then select
Templates and are presented with an empty screen with no templates listed.
The exact same operation in Expression Web gives you a choice of 19
templates with the exact same menus, screen shots, help content, etc.
Not only do they not allow you to use the templates that their setup
program has installed, from what I can tell, they don't allow you to use any
templates (other than another selection that allows you to use the
SharePoint Templates that are downloaded from a SharePoint server). Nothing
in the documentation explains how to add a normal template. I can't believe
a program like that can even get out the door - dead ended menu items, no
documentation, etc. Designed by committee would seem to apply (where no one
told the committee what the target audience was).
And lots of people that don't do this stuff as our #1 job find the
templates very useful. They setup a basic web structure with navigation,
editable regions, content place holders, etc. They are easy to modify and
save a lot of time - which is why someone would buy the program in the first
place.
But maybe they are on to something - why don't I take all of my programs,
give each one two new names, take one feature out of each one, then sell
them and make twice as much money because now my customers have to buy two
programs instead of one. That appears to be what was done with Front Page
being replaced by SharePoint Designer and Expression Web.
Russ
"Gerry Hickman" <gerry666uk@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:OmxCMB0mIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Hi,
>
> You can create non SP websites with SPD, so you appear to be saying the
> only issue is not being able to use the Microsoft designed templates, is
> that right? My guess is that most people designing their own websites from
> scratch would not want to use Microsoft's templates, but it's also
> possible the templates were originally designed with the assumption that
> SP features would be available, and therefore may not be suitable for web
> servers that don't run the extensions?
>
> Do they expect you to buy both? My guess is "yes". As usual we have
> massive (and pointless) duplication.
>
date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:13:41 -0400
author: Russell Stevens am
Re: Expression Web versus Sharepoint Designer
Gerry,
If the content is on one page, you publish one page. If you have a site
where the same content is repeated on all the pages, you just include that
content in your .dwt page (template page) or on a master page. If you use a
template page, then Expression Web or SharePoint Designer will modify the
other 1000 pages before you upload and you upload all 1000 pages (say for
the footer of all the web pages). Or if all the pages just point to the same
content via a url then you can just change what is at that url and not
upload any pages. If you use a SharePoint server and master pages then the
server will dish out all the changes via the master page. I think shared
borders and frames are pretty much history (they died with Front Page).
A template page is different than a web site template. A template page
shows up on all the pages that use it and can have editable and non editable
regions - you can include your masthead, site navigation, footer, on a
template page so you don't have to manually put them on each page. A web
site template will typically generate an entire web site consisting of a
template page and a default.htm, and other pages say for contacts, links,
about, etc. depending on the design of the template. You can change the look
of the whole site by modifying the style sheet and the template page. Each
page will have some placeholders for your custom content. And if done
correctly, all the fonts, colors, graphics, buttons, etc. were picked by
someone who knew what they were doing. Nothing you can't do from scratch in
several hours, but with a site template, you can have a whole site ready for
you to modify in a couple of seconds. It just doesn't make sense why
Microsoft would remove this capability.
Russ
>
> OK, but how can they work on a non-extended web server? For example, let's
> say you build a site with 1000 pages and the top left corner of each page
> has a content place holder. One day you change the content place holder in
> the client application and then want to publish the changes to the web
> server. Does that mean it will suddenly update 1000 pages, or does it use
> an IFRAME or something? On an extended server, you obviously have
> server-side includes or design time functionality so it just grabs the
> content from ONE location and it's magically changed the whole site. There
> was always a problem with Frontpage with the shared borders feature where
> the end user could accidentally change the whole site with a few clicks.
>
> --
> Gerry Hickman (London UK)
date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 23:30:05 -0400
author: Russell Stevens am
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