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date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:17:57 -0700,
group: microsoft.public.games.zone.asherons_call
back
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
news:h2gbc116u77bpts95ef5ll6koameaf3lhk@4ax.com...
> [...]
> I'm about ready to get DSL. My question is: is there anything
> different that you have to do in setting up online games? Or will I
> be able to just "plug and play"? Are there any pitfalls (no, not the
> kind from Activision!) I should watch out for with DSL?
It should work exactly as your dial-up did, except faster data transfer
(latency -- that is, network lag -- may or may not be better, depending on
how good your dial-up is now, and how good the DSL winds up being).
Of course, many people wind up adding a NAT router into the mix once they
have broadband, particularly if they have more than one PC using the
connection. And that very well might complicate the gaming situation,
depending on the router and what exactly you're doing. Games like AC and
CoH are less likely to be problematic, while games where you have some
server element on your own computer -- ie peer-to-peer network games -- are
more of an issue. As far as games like AC and CoH go, it's been a long time
since I've heard of a router that didn't work fine right out of the box.
All that said, remember that -- just as with AC -- not all lag is network
lag. In fact, lag in congested areas is just as often, if not more often,
due to limitations with the server or client hardware (processing power)
than it is with any bandwidth issues. Your move from dial-up to DSL should
improve some things some of the time, but don't expect it to make all
problems go away.
What CoH server ("shard") are you using? I'm on Victory.
Pete
date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:02:18 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:02:18 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:
>All that said, remember that -- just as with AC -- not all lag is network
>lag. In fact, lag in congested areas is just as often, if not more often,
>due to limitations with the server or client hardware (processing power)
>than it is with any bandwidth issues. Your move from dial-up to DSL should
>improve some things some of the time, but don't expect it to make all
>problems go away.
Thanks for all that info. I do remember folks here (or maybe on the
SWG group) telling me that congested areas are handled much better by
getting more RAM, so I am keeping that in mind as well. I'm looking
forward to DSL so I can also not get frustrated when someone sends me
a large email. Also, CoH downloads should go much faster!
>
>What CoH server ("shard") are you using? I'm on Victory.
What server am I NOT playing on, is an easier question! :-)
Actually, I have characters on Pinnacle, Protector and Guardian due to
them being less "busy". As of now, I don't have a main toon yet... I
kinda went hog wild with trying all sorts of powers & costumes, I
think I have around 25 characters so far. My highest lvl is 12.
(Yep, I still haven't experienced a travel power yet!).
David
date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 08:51:21 -0700
author: Grey Wolf
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
news:7t1gc11bsassflit5v4sgf2jtfeg2iorak@4ax.com...
> Thanks for all that info. I do remember folks here (or maybe on the
> SWG group) telling me that congested areas are handled much better by
> getting more RAM, so I am keeping that in mind as well.
Yes, more system RAM should definitely improve things there, if your
computer is currently getting bogged down *and* you note a lot of disk
activity. Otherwise, if you're getting poor frame rates but no disk
activity, your bottleneck is more likely your video card.
If you get other symptoms of lag, but your frame rate is okay, probably
you're dealing with network or server lag, neither of which you can do much
about (other than hoping that your DSL service will be less laggy than the
dial-up, without knowing for sure whether you are actually suffering from
network lag in the first place).
> I'm looking
> forward to DSL so I can also not get frustrated when someone sends me
> a large email. Also, CoH downloads should go much faster!
Most definitely. :) Any broadband compared to dial-up will be a huge
difference. CoH has the nice feature that many download occur *after* you
log out, but even so you'll find life is better with broadband.
That said, not all broadband is equal. Once you have broadband, you will
find yourself pushing the limits again. You'll try things you never would
have dreamed of using dial-up, like downloading entire CD images (fun with
Linux :) ) or going to NASA's "Earth as Art" web site and copying all the
images from there.
I myself am just starting a month-long comparison between DSL and cable
modem. We have had DSL for years, practically since it was first available
(we were part of our area's beta test, before it was available to paying
customers). That DSL was only initially 384 Kbps, upgraded a couple of
years ago to 512 Kbps, while current offerings are up to 3.0Mbps for DSL,
and cable is advertising 4.0 Mbps.
Our new cable modem was installed last week, and while they only advertise
4.0 Mbps, we have been regularly getting between 6 and 7 Mbps on that
connection. Our new DSL should be installed in a week or so, at which time
we'll see how fast that really is.
Based on our experience with our previous DSL, I'm expecting the DSL speed
to be much more controlled; it's a direct line, and the speed is (as far as
I know) set at the hardware level. But with cable modem, we are sharing our
neighbors bandwidth, and so the hardware is capable of much greater speeds
than the cable company promises. As long as we don't have too many
neighbors competing on our connection, we'll get much faster speeds than
advertised (as I've found since getting hooked up).
Anyway, I doubt you really care about all that. I just haven't had a chance
to talk about our broadband experiment with anyone else yet, and it all just
came gushing out. :)
>>What CoH server ("shard") are you using? I'm on Victory.
>
> What server am I NOT playing on, is an easier question! :-)
> Actually, I have characters on Pinnacle, Protector and Guardian due to
> them being less "busy". As of now, I don't have a main toon yet... I
> kinda went hog wild with trying all sorts of powers & costumes, I
> think I have around 25 characters so far. My highest lvl is 12.
> (Yep, I still haven't experienced a travel power yet!).
LOL. Well, you should definitely push at least one character past the 14
mark. Not many games give you a true opportunity to fly, and the other
"travel" powers are pretty cool too. Super speed is the best all-around
IMHO, but teleportation is pretty amazing too. Each offers unique
advantages not available to others: flight gives you easy straight-line
travel and you can easily pause (hover) if you run out of stamina; super
speed includes stealth; teleport allows you to jump past a group of bad guys
you don't want to mess with. Other advantages exist as well, of course, for
each.
I'm amazed you have 25 characters...I guess the different powers must be the
main attraction there. Personally, I'd get sick of doing the same missions
over and over again. Gameplay is already pretty monotonous in CoH as it is,
other than the variation in powers. There are really only a half-dozen or
so different missions anyway, but at least the story changes as you go up in
level. :)
Anyway, if you do eventually decide to commit to a dedicated character (or a
few), feel free to look me up on Victory. My global chat ID is "Blood's
Shadow". I don't get to play except late evenings usually, around 10-12pm
Pacific time, though I've been known to be on other times too.
Pete
date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:59:51 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:59:51 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:
>Anyway, I doubt you really care about all that. I just haven't had a chance
>to talk about our broadband experiment with anyone else yet, and it all just
>came gushing out. :)
>
Hi Pete, actually that was good to know. I've heard cable modems are
pretty fast too, but right now, the phone company is offering DSL at
the lowest rate around (for a year), so I'm thinking of going with
that.
>> What server am I NOT playing on, is an easier question! :-)
>> Actually, I have characters on Pinnacle, Protector and Guardian due to
>> them being less "busy". As of now, I don't have a main toon yet... I
>> kinda went hog wild with trying all sorts of powers & costumes, I
>> think I have around 25 characters so far. My highest lvl is 12.
>> (Yep, I still haven't experienced a travel power yet!).
>
>LOL. Well, you should definitely push at least one character past the 14
>mark. Not many games give you a true opportunity to fly, and the other
>"travel" powers are pretty cool too. Super speed is the best all-around
>IMHO, but teleportation is pretty amazing too. Each offers unique
>advantages not available to others: flight gives you easy straight-line
>travel and you can easily pause (hover) if you run out of stamina; super
>speed includes stealth; teleport allows you to jump past a group of bad guys
>you don't want to mess with. Other advantages exist as well, of course, for
>each.
I think I'm liking the scrapper (katana/regen) archetype the best.
But I like various powers in different archetypes, even if they don't
suit my play style. I just built a tanker (stone/axe) for the sake of
carrying around an axe, even though I'm not really big on the tanker
archetype.
I did get hover, and I'm amazed that you can basically move in any of
the three dimensions. I've already experienced the vertigo effect by
flying up as high as I can go and looking around (or dropping). Or
even standing on the edge of a tall building.
>
>I'm amazed you have 25 characters...I guess the different powers must be the
>main attraction there. Personally, I'd get sick of doing the same missions
>over and over again. Gameplay is already pretty monotonous in CoH as it is,
>other than the variation in powers. There are really only a half-dozen or
>so different missions anyway, but at least the story changes as you go up in
>level. :)
>
Pretty pathetic, aren't I? Heh. After the 4th or 5th time, I am
finding that the missions aren't as hard as I thought they were the
first time I went through them, which is nice. Part of that is also
because my first 6-8 characters were built the wrong way (before I
knew what I was doing), and after that, I really started experimenting
to see what styles I liked. For example, with the scrapper/regen, I
tried to plan out what powers I would get at which levels... and I got
to lvl 8 or 10 and realized I had several different choices. So I
built a scrapper for each of the choices, to see how different it
would be. I just found the ign message boards, so now I'm reading
things and just found out that there's a test server you can copy to
before you level, so you can try out a diffeent option if you like.
>Anyway, if you do eventually decide to commit to a dedicated character (or a
>few), feel free to look me up on Victory. My global chat ID is "Blood's
>Shadow". I don't get to play except late evenings usually, around 10-12pm
>Pacific time, though I've been known to be on other times too.
>
>Pete
>
Thanks. Next time I run out of toons on a server, I'll start one on
Victory and say "hi". :-) I tend to play earlier in the evening, but
have been known to stay up late if I'm having fun.
David
PS - do you know if there's a CoH newsgroup? I searched, but
evidently none are created (or they're not on my ISP's server).
date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:54:57 -0700
author: Grey Wolf
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
Peter Duniho wrote:
>I myself am just starting a month-long comparison between DSL and cable
>modem.
I'm looking forward to that, Peter... please post it here. Gathering
throughput and latency data over time would be great. Latency data
would, of course, be affected by the path. So you might considering
large pings one or two hops out from your router. Large pings to the
hop just outside the ISP's border router would also be good, to measure
what kind of pipe they have outside.
One advantage DSL generally has over cable is the common-carrier
status, which means they don't put nasty restrictions on your use like
running a DNS or web server. It was also recently judged legal for
cable companies to degrade VOIP from competing companies like Vonage.
I expect if they continue to do this, there will be monopoly lawsuits
forthcoming. (I believe Comcast was known to give their own VOIP
transmissions priority over other traffic, making their service better
than 3rd party services.) DSL has guaranteed bandwidth, from what I
understand, which is not shared except at the border router. But
although cable is shared, they have much more bandwidth to work with.
>Super speed is the best all-around
>IMHO, but teleportation is pretty amazing too.
I like superjump the best! Teleportation is great, too, especially if
you also have hover.... but that's a lot of points to spend on travel.
>I'm amazed you have 25 characters...I guess the different powers must
>be the main attraction there.
My money says he just likes designing costumes!
stef
--
Change your views to respect the truth, not vice-versa.
date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:32:58 +0000 (UTC)
author: (Stef)
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Stef" wrote in message news:daeqpq$6k5$1@iruka.swcp.com...
> I'm looking forward to that, Peter... please post it here. Gathering
> throughput and latency data over time would be great.
Hah! Don't get your hopes up. My primary interest is as a relatively
indiscriminate consumer. :) Yes, I do play some online games, but
bandwidth and cost are our primary motivating factors here. I'll have good
information on throughput (bandwidth), but latency data is not something I
expect to look at carefully. I might run some ping/tracert tests if I get
bored one day, but otherwise the only question will be "do my games play
okay?" :)
One interesting issue is that I have become aware of the limitations of our
wireless network (802.11b). Signal propagation in our house isn't great
anyway, and I regularly have a "poor" link. Several of my speed tests have
been limited not by the Internet connection, but instead by the wireless
network. Of course, those tests are invalid; I either hook my laptop up by
wire, or use one of the PCs with a direct-connect, for real tests. The
wireless connection, theoretically maxing out at 11 Mbs, regularly comes in
at 0.8 to 2.0 Mbps.
Today they were supposed to disconnect our old DSL, and schedule hook-up for
the new DSL. Hopefully, within a week we'll have parallel Internet
connections. Too bad I don't have any cool way to take full advantage of
that. :)
> [...]
> One advantage DSL generally has over cable is the common-carrier
> status, which means they don't put nasty restrictions on your use like
> running a DNS or web server.
I hadn't heard anything about that. Our DSL carrier (Verizon) specifically
disallows running servers. Technically, this would include hosting
peer-to-peer online games, but I assume they aren't concerned about
low-bandwidth applications like that. You have to pay for a "business"
connection in order to get permission to run a full-blown server (web, FTP,
DNS, mail, etc.).
> It was also recently judged legal for
> cable companies to degrade VOIP from competing companies like Vonage.
Do you have a link to a news article for that? I vaguely recollect some
sort of cable/VoIP stuff in the news but wasn't paying close attention. I'd
sure love to re-read it now that you mention it.
> [...] DSL has guaranteed bandwidth, from what I
> understand, which is not shared except at the border router. But
> although cable is shared, they have much more bandwidth to work with.
Exactly. So far, that's what I've found. Our lowest speed has been at
about the advertised rate, and we consistently get much higher than that
(usually 50% faster or more). Our previous DSL was very good about not
going above the rated speed :), and I expect the new one to be the same.
That would mean that the cable modem, while not advertised to do so, would
regularly be twice as fast as the DSL.
Of course, if and when our neighbors get wise to broadband, that could all
change. It all depends on just how much they actually use their Internet
connection, how many neighbors jump on the bandwagon, and how proactive the
cable company is about adding capacity as they get more customers.
Who knows if we'll have cable long enough to find out the answers to THOSE
questions. It seems apparent that for the near future, cable modem will be
a lot faster than DSL. But DSL is still significantly cheaper ($40/month
versus $55/month), and we would get the advantages of the dedicated
connection, as well as keeping our old email addresses, and a much faster
upload speed (768 Kbps versus cable modem's 384 Kbps), which is handy for
when we put big files on our hosted web server (we use it to share video
with family, and for moving large computer files for various projects).
> [...]
> I like superjump the best! Teleportation is great, too, especially if
> you also have hover.... but that's a lot of points to spend on travel.
Yeah, I'm debating whether to take the hover power or not for my teleporting
character. It would be really handy, rather than having to find a good
place to hang out on top of a building somewhere mid-trip. But on the other
hand, there are other ways to improve teleportation that are more general,
depending on your power set.
I have Energy as my secondary set, and that includes the conserve power,
which would go a long way to making teleportation more practical. Or I
could just use some more enhancement slots to add range or endurance cost
reduction to the power (not knowing right this moment which would be more
effective...I suspect reducing the endurance cost would be, but don't know
that for a fact).
My wife has a character with superjump, and she loves it. The first time
she tried it, it was like she was a little kid again. :) The main reason
she got it was that it fit best with her character, which was modeled after
the cartoon hero, The Tick. Unfortunately, ever since the lawsuit by
Marvel, NCSoft has been chicken-shit about potential copyright violations,
and she got stripped of her identity. But the superjump remains. :)
>>I'm amazed you have 25 characters...I guess the different powers must
>>be the main attraction there.
>
> My money says he just likes designing costumes!
Could be. :) Character customization is still one of the biggest draws for
CoH IMHO, and it's only gotten better now that you get control over fine
details like body and facial structure.
Whatever the reason, I'm impressed. :)
Pete
date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:22:59 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:22:59 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:
>Who knows if we'll have cable long enough to find out the answers to THOSE
>questions. It seems apparent that for the near future, cable modem will be
>a lot faster than DSL. But DSL is still significantly cheaper ($40/month
>versus $55/month), and we would get the advantages of the dedicated
>connection, as well as keeping our old email addresses, and a much faster
>upload speed (768 Kbps versus cable modem's 384 Kbps), which is handy for
>when we put big files on our hosted web server (we use it to share video
>with family, and for moving large computer files for various projects).
That's pretty much my reason for going with DSL, the cost factor. It
was a hard enough decision to stay with the basic plan, instead of
getting the "pro" for $24.99 for the first year, and then $60/mo.
aftewards. (My DSL provider will be SBC, and currently if you sign up
online, you can get their basic DSL for $14.99/mo. for the first year,
and I think $40/mo. thereafter.)
Considering I'm now paying $20/mo. for an extra phone line so that my
family can actually call me and get through - as well as the $17 for
an ISP, I'm actually going to be saving a good bit of money for the
first year and thereafter paying only $3/mo. for much faster internet
usage. Woo hoo! (I'm glad I waited this long, so I could get a
pretty good bargain!)
>My wife has a character with superjump, and she loves it. The first time
>she tried it, it was like she was a little kid again. :) The main reason
>she got it was that it fit best with her character, which was modeled after
>the cartoon hero, The Tick. Unfortunately, ever since the lawsuit by
>Marvel, NCSoft has been chicken-shit about potential copyright violations,
>and she got stripped of her identity. But the superjump remains. :)
One of my favorite so far is my character Leap Frog. He's dressed up
in green and yellow tights with black spots and a breather mask. He's
up to lvl 9, and I get Combat Jumping at lvl 10, so I can't wait for
that! (As it is, I still jump all over the place, just not very
spectacularly!) Then I'll get Super Jump at lvl 14. Can't wait. (I
was on a different server and saw another Leap Frog! Gasp! This guy
looked more like a lizard, actually... so our toons looked nothing
alike, except we both had a "huge" body shape. I also noticed his was
a scraper Martial Artist/Regen - which, in retrospect, I wish I had
taken. Mine's MA/Invuln.)
>
>>>I'm amazed you have 25 characters...I guess the different powers must
>>>be the main attraction there.
>>
>> My money says he just likes designing costumes!
>
>Could be. :) Character customization is still one of the biggest draws for
>CoH IMHO, and it's only gotten better now that you get control over fine
>details like body and facial structure.
>
>Whatever the reason, I'm impressed. :)
Stef would not be wrong in her assessment! :-) This is even more fun
than Star Wars Galaxies was, in that regard!
Actually, most of my alts were to test out various powers... but I
found I couldn't just create a quick character... no, I had to go and
design a new costume and backstory for each one. I've only deleted
maybe 3 characters.
CoH is very fun!
David
date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:47:17 -0700
author: Grey Wolf
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
On the calendar, in the box marked 7/5/2005 2:22 PM ^ Peter Duniho
scratched:
> "Stef" wrote in message news:daeqpq$6k5$1@iruka.swcp.com...
>
>> [...]
>> One advantage DSL generally has over cable is the common-carrier
>> status, which means they don't put nasty restrictions on your use like
>> running a DNS or web server.
>
> I hadn't heard anything about that. Our DSL carrier (Verizon) specifically
> disallows running servers. Technically, this would include hosting
> peer-to-peer online games, but I assume they aren't concerned about
> low-bandwidth applications like that. You have to pay for a "business"
> connection in order to get permission to run a full-blown server (web, FTP,
> DNS, mail, etc.).
Or, specifically, Verizon Online? I've been running servers on my DSL
for a while now, but I've had DSL for years with Verizon and a 3rd party
ISP.
>
>> [...] DSL has guaranteed bandwidth, from what I
>> understand, which is not shared except at the border router. But
>> although cable is shared, they have much more bandwidth to work with.
>
> Exactly. So far, that's what I've found. Our lowest speed has been at
> about the advertised rate, and we consistently get much higher than that
> (usually 50% faster or more). Our previous DSL was very good about not
> going above the rated speed :), and I expect the new one to be the same.
> That would mean that the cable modem, while not advertised to do so, would
> regularly be twice as fast as the DSL.
>
I wish I could take advantage of the new pricing plans with Verizon, but
I'm stuck in a bit of a catch 22. I have the old frame relay setup at
1.5m/384k. If I want better speeds, I need to get hooked up with their
ATM service. However, if I do that, the best speed I can get is
768k/128k. Bah! Now if I could only ambush some local techs in my area
so I could find out if this is a "fixable" problem.
Justin H.
--
Nyarlathotep casts a spell
date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:34:06 -0700
author: Justin H.
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Justin H." wrote in message
news:umdDmGbgFHA.1444@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> I hadn't heard anything about that. Our DSL carrier (Verizon)
>> specifically
>> disallows running servers. [...]
>
> Or, specifically, Verizon Online? I've been running servers on my DSL
> for a while now, but I've had DSL for years with Verizon and a 3rd party
> ISP.
I mispoke. Our DSL carrier is Verizon, but the "no servers" policy comes
from our ISP (Northwest Link (became) Pacifier (became) Infinity Internet).
I'm still not aware of anything related to "common-carrier status" that
forces allowing all uses (like running servers). If there is some such
thing, it either doesn't apply to our situation, or I could sue to get the
restriction lifted.
Of course, I think there's a good chance they'd never notice unless I tried
to run some high-traffic server. I have a friend who runs a full server
suite (http, FTP, mail, remote desktop, maybe some other stuff) on his cable
modem, all of which is explicitly prohibited by his provider, but they've
never said anything about it.
> [...]
> I wish I could take advantage of the new pricing plans with Verizon, but
> I'm stuck in a bit of a catch 22. I have the old frame relay setup at
> 1.5m/384k. If I want better speeds, I need to get hooked up with their
> ATM service. However, if I do that, the best speed I can get is
> 768k/128k.
Strange. Our switch involves "7-10 days of downtime for the DSL connection
(supposed to hear "real soon now" just how long the downtime will be),
because we're in the same situation. But it was our frame relay mode that
was limited (they claimed it was limited to 512/128 Kbps, but during the
beta we saw speeds up to 1.5 Mbps symmetric, so I'm sure that was just the
marketing people talking). The new ATM connection is supposed to provide
3.0 Mbps (with 768 Kbps upload).
I forget the exact distance of wire to our switching station. Straight line
is a little over a mile, but if I recall correctly the wire distance is over
12000'.
> Bah! Now if I could only ambush some local techs in my area
> so I could find out if this is a "fixable" problem.
Dunno...I guess that depends on what your problem actually is. If it's a
sales and marketing issue, there may be no good solution. :( If it's a
distance from the switching station problem, you may have to wait for some
infrastructure or technology upgrade. If it's just erronous information,
you may be in luck! :)
Pete
date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:33:17 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
news:l7vlc1hk29lnvk88a3b73o6tnsrbsf3jqf@4ax.com...
> [...]
> That's pretty much my reason for going with DSL, the cost factor. It
> was a hard enough decision to stay with the basic plan, instead of
> getting the "pro" for $24.99 for the first year, and then $60/mo.
> aftewards. (My DSL provider will be SBC, and currently if you sign up
> online, you can get their basic DSL for $14.99/mo. for the first year,
> and I think $40/mo. thereafter.)
I just today heard about that SBC deal. Makes me wish they were a DSL
provider in our area (I think they're not). $300 savings in the first year
would be nice (our new DSL will cost the same $40/month you'll get next
year).
> Considering I'm now paying $20/mo. for an extra phone line so that my
> family can actually call me and get through - as well as the $17 for
> an ISP, I'm actually going to be saving a good bit of money for the
> first year and thereafter paying only $3/mo. for much faster internet
> usage. Woo hoo! (I'm glad I waited this long, so I could get a
> pretty good bargain!)
Again (I replied to Justin's post first :) ), we're pretty much in the same
boat. Not only is our DSL technology left over from the early days, so are
our rates. We have been paying both Verizon, for the DSL connection itself,
as well as our ISP, for the actual Internet services, at well over the cost
for even a cable modem, and for much slower speeds.
I finally got off my butt, realizing how much of a dope I have been for
paying lots more for getting lots less. :) I would've just switched to the
DSL straight off, rather than doing this whole comparison thing, but because
our ISP and our phone carrier can't get their acts coordinated, we were
going to suffer as much as a week and a half of no broadband. After you
have been using DSL for almost a decade, you'll understand why that's such a
hardship. :)
Anyway, Comcast has a 30-day no-risk trial, so I figured that would allow us
to compare the two services directly, while at the same time providing
coverage during the DSL downtime. It remains to be seen who wins at the
end. DSL has a bit of a headstart, since they are cheaper and have other
benefits. But fast downloads are always tempting. :)
> [...]
> One of my favorite so far is my character Leap Frog. He's dressed up
> in green and yellow tights with black spots and a breather mask.
It's funny. When I'm dressing up my characters, I see costume parts that
just seem absurd to me. Like the breather mask. And then I'll be wandering
around Paragon City and see someone with that costume part, and it looks
perfect. Then I realize, the costume part is only absurd for MY character.
Which makes sense, when you think about it. :) For a given character,
there's a fairly limited style that might go with that character, once you
know who the character is. But there's an unlimited range of character
personalities, and thus the greater the variety of costume parts, no matter
how seemingly absurd some might be, the more likely it is a given character
will look the part.
> He's
> up to lvl 9, and I get Combat Jumping at lvl 10, so I can't wait for
> that! (As it is, I still jump all over the place, just not very
> spectacularly!) Then I'll get Super Jump at lvl 14. Can't wait.
How much do you team up with others? Do you do a lot of sidekicking? With
25 characters, it's not hard to see why none are very high level. But
getting to 14 when you're sidekicking a higher-level character can be VERY
quick. A matter of maybe four or five hours, depending.
I should also point out that it's hard to really understand a power set
until you've gotten farther into the powers available, which of course you
can only do by getting the character to higher levels. Dressing up is fun,
but comparing a wide variety of low-level characters only tells you what
that variety of power sets are like at low levels.
Anyway, I think you'll really like super jump. I haven't had it on any of
my own characters, but I've looked over my wife's shoulder as she pounces
around town, and it's pretty amazing. It's one of the most chaotic travel
powers (maybe THE most chaotic), and every trip is a little different. :)
> [...]
> Stef would not be wrong in her assessment! :-) This is even more fun
> than Star Wars Galaxies was, in that regard!
Heh...just goes to show, on the Internet no one knows who you really are. I
have always assumed Stef was short for Stefan, a not-uncommon European male
name (I say European, but I admit all the Stefans I've known have been from
northern Europe...Sweden, Netherlands, etc.).
But of course, Stef very well could be female for all I know!
> Actually, most of my alts were to test out various powers... but I
> found I couldn't just create a quick character... no, I had to go and
> design a new costume and backstory for each one. I've only deleted
> maybe 3 characters.
Yup...I know how you feel. It's sort of like creating an empty shell, with
no soul, if you don't do all that design work. If I'm going to be Dr.
Frankenstein, I feel a moral imperative to at least grant my creation a real
personality. :)
> CoH is very fun!
Given how many complaints I have of it, I am consistently surprised at how
much I enjoy playing it. It's not even close to being as rich in detail and
nuance as Asheron's Call is, and yet there are certain aspects of it that
completely surpass AC.
Which is, of course, just a wordy way of saying "CoH is very fun!" :)
Pete
date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:51:55 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:51:55 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:
>"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
>I finally got off my butt, realizing how much of a dope I have been for
>paying lots more for getting lots less. :) I would've just switched to the
>DSL straight off, rather than doing this whole comparison thing, but because
>our ISP and our phone carrier can't get their acts coordinated, we were
>going to suffer as much as a week and a half of no broadband. After you
>have been using DSL for almost a decade, you'll understand why that's such a
>hardship. :)
Heh, I think about this when I think about the special offer of
$14.99/mo. running out. Then I'd either have to "lump it" when it
reverts back to the normal pricing of $40/mo., or go without while I
switch carriers/ISP's, etc.. And if I think going without is hard now
(on dialup), I'd really be jonesing after having DSL! And this, my
friends, is how they getcha. :-)
>Which makes sense, when you think about it. :) For a given character,
>there's a fairly limited style that might go with that character, once you
>know who the character is. But there's an unlimited range of character
>personalities, and thus the greater the variety of costume parts, no matter
>how seemingly absurd some might be, the more likely it is a given character
>will look the part.
I agree. Some of the robot types initially turned me off (because I'm
not a big robot fan). However it wasn't long before I started seeing
some really cool designs that people thought up, and I was forced to
admit that those costumes were pretty awesome.
Speaking of costumes, the frequent costume contests are great fun just
to see all the various combos that people dream up! You're right,
there is a huge variety!
>How much do you team up with others? Do you do a lot of sidekicking? With
>25 characters, it's not hard to see why none are very high level. But
>getting to 14 when you're sidekicking a higher-level character can be VERY
>quick. A matter of maybe four or five hours, depending.
I don't team up very often, only when forced, basically and I haven't
tried sidekicking yet. I've never really liked teams on any of the
MMO games I've played... and it's not because I'm antisocial, but I
absolutely hate screwing up on a team, or letting the teammates down,
etc.. When I read the boards for CoH and see how people complain
about dumb players who do this or that wrong, or who don't know their
role (ie, tankers who want to play as scrappers, etc.), I think "Geez,
no wonder I don't like teams." It's too stressful. I'm not playing
to ruin someone else's chance at getting their level or loot, etc. nor
am I playing to be scoled by someone else either. I prefer soloing
mostly because if I screw up, then I'm only affecting myself.
This is another reason I'm enjoying the low levels so far, in that
nobody expects a beginner to do very well. I started a controller
character a short while ago and I decided to accept an offer to team
up. My team was happy if just one of the bad guys was trapped in my
fire cage. That made me happy. But when I get to the point in the
game where too much is going on and I can't keep up, or where the
stakes are so high that other players will hate me if I screw up, I
will either solo (if able) or give up the ghost (like I did with AC2).
It's why I'm kinda leery of Turbine's upcoming games, just due to
their stance on forced grouping.
I realize these are MMO's, and we're playing with people so who in
their right mind would want to solo and be alone? (Just play a
single-player game if that's what you want, right?) But for me, the
MMO's I've played (AC1, AC2, SWG, and now CoH) give more of an
immersive experience than most of the single-player games I've played,
I think because I know I'm playing with other people. The worlds are
usually bigger, and I enjoy watching others play or chatting with them
in town squares or even playing on teams when they're not busy being
hyper-perfect. (Morrowind was one of the rare exceptions in that I
felt the single player RPG game was perfected.)
Oops, that turned into a rant. Sorry about that.
>
>I should also point out that it's hard to really understand a power set
>until you've gotten farther into the powers available, which of course you
>can only do by getting the character to higher levels. Dressing up is fun,
>but comparing a wide variety of low-level characters only tells you what
>that variety of power sets are like at low levels.
I hope to get there. Luckily some of the powersets are good for
soloing, so if I get too stressed from teaming, I can always turn to
my solo characters. I think that's the smartest thing a game can do -
leave the options open to all types of players so that everyone can be
happy.
I'm hoping that the more teaming I do, the more I'll enjoy it, and the
more I'll want to keep doing. Everybody had to have a learning curve
at some point, right?
>
>Anyway, I think you'll really like super jump. I haven't had it on any of
>my own characters, but I've looked over my wife's shoulder as she pounces
>around town, and it's pretty amazing. It's one of the most chaotic travel
>powers (maybe THE most chaotic), and every trip is a little different. :)
Can't wait! I'll have my dramamine nearby, just in case! :-)
>Heh...just goes to show, on the Internet no one knows who you really are. I
>have always assumed Stef was short for Stefan, a not-uncommon European male
>name (I say European, but I admit all the Stefans I've known have been from
>northern Europe...Sweden, Netherlands, etc.).
>
>But of course, Stef very well could be female for all I know!
Oops! I've never known a Stefan, and in fact at work each day, I sit
next to a Stefanie who goes by "Stef"... so of course I just assumed
our "Stef" was female.
Stef, my apologies if my assumption was incorrect! :-)
>Given how many complaints I have of it, I am consistently surprised at how
>much I enjoy playing it. It's not even close to being as rich in detail and
>nuance as Asheron's Call is, and yet there are certain aspects of it that
>completely surpass AC.
>
>Which is, of course, just a wordy way of saying "CoH is very fun!" :)
>
>Pete
>
It is pretty repetitive (as far as missions go, from my limited
experience)... but the various powers and the fact that you can create
so many characters (it boggles the mind!), there's a lot of variation
when it comes to playing through those missions. Getting new powers
(as with any levelling game) is fun too, a timeless method of keeping
people playing. For now, it is definitely worth the money I pay each
month.
David
date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:31:40 -0700
author: Grey Wolf
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
news:ordpc1h865k898rniiu323b9fh60j8vb9k@4ax.com...
> Heh, I think about this when I think about the special offer of
> $14.99/mo. running out. Then I'd either have to "lump it" when it
> reverts back to the normal pricing of $40/mo., or go without while I
> switch carriers/ISP's, etc
Well, as you already pointed out, even at $40/month, it's a good deal. At
least compared to what you're paying for and getting out of it now.
> .. And if I think going without is hard now
> (on dialup), I'd really be jonesing after having DSL! And this, my
> friends, is how they getcha. :-)
Yup...once you've had broadband, there's no going back. That said, it's not
a lot different than many other utilities we take for granted: phone, water,
electricity, cable or satellite TV, etc.
> [...]
> I don't team up very often, only when forced, basically and I haven't
> tried sidekicking yet. I've never really liked teams on any of the
> MMO games I've played... and it's not because I'm antisocial, but I
> absolutely hate screwing up on a team, or letting the teammates down,
> etc..
IMHO, it's not that bad. :)
> When I read the boards for CoH and see how people complain
> about dumb players who do this or that wrong, or who don't know their
> role (ie, tankers who want to play as scrappers, etc.), I think "Geez,
> no wonder I don't like teams." It's too stressful.
Keep in mind that the people who bother to post on the boards are the ones
most anal about playing the game. They don't represent the game population
as a whole. Also...
> I'm not playing
> to ruin someone else's chance at getting their level or loot, etc. nor
> am I playing to be scoled by someone else either. I prefer soloing
> mostly because if I screw up, then I'm only affecting myself.
IMHO, one of the great things about CoH is that there's not really any loot
to speak of, and what it has that amounts to loot is distributed evenly
among teammates as it's randomly generated. The only thing that can "ruin
someone else's chance at getting their level" is for them to fail to run
away when they need to and wind up at the hospital instead. And even then,
all it does is slow them down a bit.
I have been on some pretty lousy teams. I sure would have volumes to write
about with respect to what constitutes good teamwork, were I so inclined.
But even the worst team didn't hurt me much. One of the good things is that
teams are easy to create, easy to leave, when they work well they are every
bit as good as a good fellowship in AC, and when they don't work well, the
worst that usually happens is that you might as well be playing solo.
You may never find team play to be a compelling part of CoH for your own
playstyle. But I encourage you to give it a good healthy try. Be prepared
for some less-than-optimal experiences, but also for some really enjoyable
times. I love how easy CoH makes it for a person to find and join a team,
and while that may lead to some less-than-stellar teams, it also makes it
easy for the casual player to jump in and spend some time on teams without
very much effort.
You may also wind up finding a few people that you gravitate towards, in
terms of consistently teaming up with. A team that practices together can
be even more effective, and it will help insulate you from the idiots (and
trust me, you may worry about being the idiot, but if you're even thinking
about how to best contribute to the team, you'll be a better team player
than the duds I've seen).
> This is another reason I'm enjoying the low levels so far, in that
> nobody expects a beginner to do very well. I started a controller
> character a short while ago and I decided to accept an offer to team
> up. My team was happy if just one of the bad guys was trapped in my
> fire cage. That made me happy.
Yay! :) It's always nice when the teamwork comes out well.
> But when I get to the point in the
> game where too much is going on and I can't keep up, or where the
> stakes are so high that other players will hate me if I screw up, I
> will either solo (if able) or give up the ghost (like I did with AC2).
Well, I just don't think the stakes are ever that high. For basic missions,
the worst-case scenario is that the team gives up, and the mission owner has
to try again later (with a different team or solo). I admit, I have not had
the time to do any of the task force missions, trials, or other more
involved team operations. But having watched over a friend's shoulder, I
don't see those as being particularly "high-stakes" events either.
Any player who hates you for screwing up, well...I don't think there are a
lot of players who would do that, but a) I think you overestimate the
chances of you screwing up badly, and b) it's just a game, and anyone that
would go so far as actually hating you for screwing up isn't worth worry too
much about. :)
> It's why I'm kinda leery of Turbine's upcoming games, just due to
> their stance on forced grouping.
For what it's worth, CoH has a bit of forced grouping too. That is, certain
character types (Defender and Controller particularly) just cannot advance
very quickly solo. Scrappers and Tanks are reasonably sturdy, and Blasters
can subdue opponents so quickly, that those classes can get through missions
without too much trouble, even with the difficulty setting turned up a bit.
But the Defenders and Controllers have pretty minimal offensive
capabilities, and to do well, you really need to be with a team.
In addition, a well-balanced team is something to behold. You should at
least experience it now and then, just because it's so fun. Even sturdy
fighters can use the assistance of someone who can heal them, enhance their
powers, or slow down the bad guys.
Finally, if you want to have fun with a team who won't judge you as long as
you're trying (we do expect an effort :) ), feel free to look me up on
Victory. My wife and I play with another couple we met in-game; it's
usually just the four of us, though occasionally other people join in. I
promise we won't hate you no matter how badly you screw up. :)
> I realize these are MMO's, and we're playing with people so who in
> their right mind would want to solo and be alone? (Just play a
> single-player game if that's what you want, right?) But for me, the
> MMO's I've played (AC1, AC2, SWG, and now CoH) give more of an
> immersive experience than most of the single-player games I've played,
I certainly understand that philosophy. I spent a fair amount of time in AC
on my own as well, though I was a member of a reasonably small-but-active
allegiance. Mostly it had to do with the time I had available to play, but
I didn't mind working alone.
Oddly enough, I think AC was better about soloing than CoH. Even a Life
Mage could get by in the early levels, and later on they were among the most
powerful (after other skills were added). After they added the ability to
redo your skills, even a tradesman could do fine...just start out with good
combat skills, then when you've got enough XP, untrain all the combat stuff
and train the craft stuff.
In CoH, some characters just will never do well solo. You can respec your
powers, but you can't change your archetype or non-pool power sets.
Archetypes with power sets ill-suited to solo play will always be that way.
So in that respect, CoH really does encourage team play. Fortunately,
there's very little penalty for doing poorly in the game. :)
Sorry...I really just meant to agree with the idea that it's not insane to
play a MMO game even if you intend to play solo. I went off on the "team
play is good" tangent again. Didn't mean to.
> [...]
> Oops, that turned into a rant. Sorry about that.
That's okay...I lost my focus too. :)
> [...]
> I'm hoping that the more teaming I do, the more I'll enjoy it, and the
> more I'll want to keep doing. Everybody had to have a learning curve
> at some point, right?
Yes, on all counts. In particular, as with most really good games, CoH
presents you with a manageable learning curve. By limiting your abilities,
you are given the opportunity to learn the game mechanics. You don't even
get debt until 5th level, debt is never all that hard to clear (assuming you
don't just keep getting defeated over and over), and even with debt, even if
you *always* have debt, the worst-case scenario is you advance at half the
expected rate. Your powers don't suffer, you don't lose any of your
equipment. Basically, the game plays the same all the time, it just takes
longer to get to the next level.
So, you can safely experiment, with your own characters, and with team play,
with very little risk. And as you say, the more you do it, the better
you'll be at it. Moreover, you'll never get better at it without
practicing. And you can't practice being on a team playing solo. :)
Pete
date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:36:23 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
Peter Duniho wrote:
>One interesting issue is that I have become aware of the limitations of our
>wireless network (802.11b). Signal propagation in our house isn't great
>anyway, and I regularly have a "poor" link.
I would recommend the book "wireless hacking" by, I think, O'Reilly.
It has all sorts of good information about hacking antennae and basically
increasing your range. Or just check the connectors on your antennae and
go buy a directional one and aim it where you generally use your laptop.
>> One advantage DSL generally has over cable is the common-carrier
>> status, which means they don't put nasty restrictions on your use like
>> running a DNS or web server.
>
>I hadn't heard anything about that. Our DSL carrier (Verizon) specifically
>disallows running servers. [corrected later to refer to the ISP]
>
>> It was also recently judged legal for
>> cable companies to degrade VOIP from competing companies like Vonage.
>
>Do you have a link to a news article for that?
Common carrier status means the company providing the service cannot be
held responsible for crimes committed over that service. The phone co
is legally protected if someone conspires with others over the phone.
For years, cable companies have been in limbo as to their status. The
question is, if they have common carrier status why would they impose such
onerous contracts for usage? The answer is that they do not have that
status.
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/27/1510219&tid=123&tid=95&tid=219
The only thing I can find about cable degrading competitor's service is
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/03/14/1847201&tid=95&tid=17
but this was challenged by an ISP and it was reversed, and that was
again challenged and heard by the supremes, but I can't find the results.
>That would mean that the cable modem, while not advertised to do so, would
>regularly be twice as fast as the DSL.
Cable has insane bandwidth, but they will expand to fill that space. You
can expect that most television will be "on-demand", where the cable co
basically acts as your PVR. This, in a small neighborhood, will consume
a ton of bandwidth, and that'll affect your performance. People have been
"uncapping" their speed caps on the modems for years, but it's pretty easy
to detect and shut you off :)
The worst part of cable is you cannot buy the bare connection. You must
buy a bundled package, or they'll simply charge you for the full package
anyway.
>The main reason she got [superjump]
> was that it fit best with her character, which was modeled after
>the cartoon hero, The Tick. Unfortunately, ever since the lawsuit by
>Marvel, NCSoft has been chicken-shit about potential copyright violations,
>and she got stripped of her identity. But the superjump remains. :)
http://plaync.com/about/2005/03/federal_judge_d.html
stef
--
Change your views to respect the truth, not vice-versa.
date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:04:58 +0000 (UTC)
author: (Stef)
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
Peter Duniho wrote:
>> One of my favorite so far is my character Leap Frog. He's dressed up
>> in green and yellow tights with black spots and a breather mask.
>
>It's funny. When I'm dressing up my characters, I see costume parts that
>just seem absurd to me. Like the breather mask. And then I'll be wandering
>around Paragon City and see someone with that costume part, and it looks
>perfect. Then I realize, the costume part is only absurd for MY character.
One of my characters has a rather simple horizontal-striped suit and a
purple full-face helmet with no eyes. It's really a rather simple costume
but fits him well (if snugly), for he is The Latex Flash! [dramatic chord]
His battlecry is "I'm ribbed for YOUR pleasure!"
>> Stef would not be wrong in her assessment! :-) This is even more fun
>> than Star Wars Galaxies was, in that regard!
>
>Heh...just goes to show, on the Internet no one knows who you really are. I
>have always assumed Stef was short for Stefan, a not-uncommon European male
>name (I say European, but I admit all the Stefans I've known have been from
>northern Europe...Sweden, Netherlands, etc.).
Yep, me and my Y-chromosomes go way back. But it's a common mistake...
>Given how many complaints I have of it, I am consistently surprised at how
>much I enjoy playing it. It's not even close to being as rich in detail and
>nuance as Asheron's Call is, and yet there are certain aspects of it that
>completely surpass AC.
>Which is, of course, just a wordy way of saying "CoH is very fun!" :)
I suspended my account recently, and I didn't get to see the extra
customization of phenotypes. It was definitely fun, but didn't hold me for
as long as I wanted. I periodically reactivate accounts and play for a bit.
I do that for AO now and then, and will for CoH I'm sure.
stef
--
Change your views to respect the truth, not vice-versa.
date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:14:19 +0000 (UTC)
author: (Stef)
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Stef" wrote in message news:dajqsa$ej4$1@iruka.swcp.com...
> Cable has insane bandwidth, but they will expand to fill that space. You
> can expect that most television will be "on-demand", where the cable co
> basically acts as your PVR. This, in a small neighborhood, will consume
> a ton of bandwidth [...]
Hmmm...I didn't think about that potential. I was only worried about other
data customers. But yes, I can see how as digital cable TV expands, that
will also compete on the network.
> [...]
> The worst part of cable is you cannot buy the bare connection. You must
> buy a bundled package, or they'll simply charge you for the full package
> anyway.
Well, sort of. We would have to pay an additional $10/month without having
television service (which we don't, so we would have to pay). I haven't
looked into what the least-expensive cable TV service is, but I'm pretty
sure it's more than $10/month. Probably in the $12-15/month ballpark.
I'm not giving up my DirecTV-enabled, 2-receiver Tivo just for cheaper cable
modem though. :)
> http://plaync.com/about/2005/03/federal_judge_d.html
Hmmm...interesting. That judgment was a good month after her character got
stripped, if I recall. I wonder if that means their policy has changed. I
wonder how I would find out.
Any more recent news than that? There was a 10-day window for NCSoft to
respond to the remaining claims, and I presume for Marvel to appeal the
dismissal. March was a long time ago as these things go. :)
Pete
date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:40:31 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
news:l7vlc1hk29lnvk88a3b73o6tnsrbsf3jqf@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:22:59 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:
>
> >Who knows if we'll have cable long enough to find out the answers to
THOSE
> >questions. It seems apparent that for the near future, cable modem will
be
> >a lot faster than DSL. But DSL is still significantly cheaper ($40/month
> >versus $55/month), and we would get the advantages of the dedicated
> >connection, as well as keeping our old email addresses, and a much faster
> >upload speed (768 Kbps versus cable modem's 384 Kbps), which is handy for
> >when we put big files on our hosted web server (we use it to share video
> >with family, and for moving large computer files for various projects).
>
> That's pretty much my reason for going with DSL, the cost factor. It
> was a hard enough decision to stay with the basic plan, instead of
> getting the "pro" for $24.99 for the first year, and then $60/mo.
> aftewards. (My DSL provider will be SBC, and currently if you sign up
> online, you can get their basic DSL for $14.99/mo. for the first year,
> and I think $40/mo. thereafter.)
Just redo your subscription anytime you see a new/better price with SBC and
you'll never pay 40.00? per month...it's what I've done for 3 years. As far
as getting the "pro" account I didn't see any difference in gameplay but did
notice a bit faster speed DLing music.
Dave
date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:19:57 GMT
author: Mulligan
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
> >My wife has a character with superjump, and she loves it. The first time
> >she tried it, it was like she was a little kid again. :) The main
reason
> >she got it was that it fit best with her character, which was modeled
after
> >the cartoon hero, The Tick. Unfortunately, ever since the lawsuit by
> >Marvel, NCSoft has been chicken-shit about potential copyright
violations,
> >and she got stripped of her identity. But the superjump remains. :)
>
> One of my favorite so far is my character Leap Frog. He's dressed up
> in green and yellow tights with black spots and a breather mask. He's
> up to lvl 9, and I get Combat Jumping at lvl 10, so I can't wait for
> that! (As it is, I still jump all over the place, just not very
> spectacularly!) Then I'll get Super Jump at lvl 14. Can't wait. (I
> was on a different server and saw another Leap Frog! Gasp! This guy
> looked more like a lizard, actually... so our toons looked nothing
> alike, except we both had a "huge" body shape. I also noticed his was
> a scraper Martial Artist/Regen - which, in retrospect, I wish I had
> taken. Mine's MA/Invuln.)
Just to give you an idea on the travel powers.....
Super Jump with SS is the most versatile, fast and fun setup there is. SS
is generally almost always paired with stealth and later with TP friend to
get around foes in missions....SS by itself is fairly worthless in at least
2-3 zones that require jumping. Fly is nice but generally slower and more
costly than most however it does give you the "sit back and fly to the
mission with no worries factor"...you will however most probably be the last
to arrive(Nowadays I pick Air Superiority over hover to give myself another
attack). Teleport in my opinion blows, for ease of use it's only for point
A to point B in generally a straight line or straight line of sight "unless"
you pick up hover to allow for a more controlled travel.....it's not very
good in crowded/clunky zones where you have to weave in and out of
obstacles.
If you have to pick one setup I would think SJ/SS or just SJ.
Dave
date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:36:43 GMT
author: Mulligan
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
news:ordpc1h865k898rniiu323b9fh60j8vb9k@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:51:55 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:
>
> >"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
> >I finally got off my butt, realizing how much of a dope I have been for
> >paying lots more for getting lots less. :) I would've just switched to
the
> >DSL straight off, rather than doing this whole comparison thing, but
because
> >our ISP and our phone carrier can't get their acts coordinated, we were
> >going to suffer as much as a week and a half of no broadband. After you
> >have been using DSL for almost a decade, you'll understand why that's
such a
> >hardship. :)
>
> Heh, I think about this when I think about the special offer of
> $14.99/mo. running out. Then I'd either have to "lump it" when it
> reverts back to the normal pricing of $40/mo., or go without while I
> switch carriers/ISP's, etc.. And if I think going without is hard now
> (on dialup), I'd really be jonesing after having DSL! And this, my
> friends, is how they getcha. :-)
>
> >Which makes sense, when you think about it. :) For a given character,
> >there's a fairly limited style that might go with that character, once
you
> >know who the character is. But there's an unlimited range of character
> >personalities, and thus the greater the variety of costume parts, no
matter
> >how seemingly absurd some might be, the more likely it is a given
character
> >will look the part.
>
> I agree. Some of the robot types initially turned me off (because I'm
> not a big robot fan). However it wasn't long before I started seeing
> some really cool designs that people thought up, and I was forced to
> admit that those costumes were pretty awesome.
>
> Speaking of costumes, the frequent costume contests are great fun just
> to see all the various combos that people dream up! You're right,
> there is a huge variety!
>
> >How much do you team up with others? Do you do a lot of sidekicking?
With
> >25 characters, it's not hard to see why none are very high level. But
> >getting to 14 when you're sidekicking a higher-level character can be
VERY
> >quick. A matter of maybe four or five hours, depending.
>
> I don't team up very often, only when forced, basically and I haven't
> tried sidekicking yet. I've never really liked teams on any of the
> MMO games I've played... and it's not because I'm antisocial, but I
> absolutely hate screwing up on a team, or letting the teammates down,
> etc.. When I read the boards for CoH and see how people complain
> about dumb players who do this or that wrong, or who don't know their
> role (ie, tankers who want to play as scrappers, etc.), I think "Geez,
> no wonder I don't like teams." It's too stressful. I'm not playing
> to ruin someone else's chance at getting their level or loot, etc. nor
> am I playing to be scoled by someone else either. I prefer soloing
> mostly because if I screw up, then I'm only affecting myself.
I almost always play in group these days and the boards are right...most
people have no concept of how to play their characters in a group which
makes for a lot of drama during missions. The number one rule is know your
character and it's role in the group. I have a level 26
controller/bubbler/healer that for the most part other than a few dot's I
throw while holding "never" does damage in a group and really cannot play
solo....but is always vital in the success of the mission. There is nothing
worse than playing with an emp healer who does not know the value of auto
healing aura with heal other hotkeyed. The 2 things I hate above all others
in groups are the players who continually rudely spam "heal" and the
"healer" who creates that situation.
In this game the best tactic in groups is to do what you do best 99% of the
time and nothing in the other 1%, saves lots of headaches. I generally will
talk to the healer and ask him to stay fairly close to the tank and
scrappers....then auto follow the healer with my big bubble on and at the
same time assist the tank with holds, keep the healer healed and everyone
bubbled.
The best way to learn how to team is to team early when you don't have a lot
of skills and not a lot is expected of you.
Dave
date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:54:58 GMT
author: Mulligan
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:54:58 GMT, "Mulligan"
wrote:
>I almost always play in group these days and the boards are right...most
>people have no concept of how to play their characters in a group which
>makes for a lot of drama during missions. The number one rule is know your
>character and it's role in the group. I have a level 26
>controller/bubbler/healer that for the most part other than a few dot's I
>throw while holding "never" does damage in a group and really cannot play
>solo....but is always vital in the success of the mission. There is nothing
>worse than playing with an emp healer who does not know the value of auto
>healing aura with heal other hotkeyed. The 2 things I hate above all others
>in groups are the players who continually rudely spam "heal" and the
>"healer" who creates that situation.
>
>In this game the best tactic in groups is to do what you do best 99% of the
>time and nothing in the other 1%, saves lots of headaches. I generally will
>talk to the healer and ask him to stay fairly close to the tank and
>scrappers....then auto follow the healer with my big bubble on and at the
>same time assist the tank with holds, keep the healer healed and everyone
>bubbled.
>
>The best way to learn how to team is to team early when you don't have a lot
>of skills and not a lot is expected of you.
>
>Dave
>
In all of the groups I've been in (which isn't saying much, I admit),
nobody's stopped and said "OK gang, this is what we should do!" The
most I've ever seen is one guy said "OK, I'm going to TP the bad guy,
don't go running in there." I think a lot of people are too restless,
lazy or bored to take the time to work up a group strategy, or they
assume that the various players already know how to play their roles.
It might also just be the level I'm playing at, I've not gotten past
lvl 12 yet, and the toughest "group mission" I've been on so far is
Frostfire. Maybe as the missions get tougher, if you don't spell out
the strategies and roles first, a few bad players can get you killed?)
By the way, what is a spam heal?
David
date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:53:28 -0700
author: Grey Wolf
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Grey Wolf" wrote in message
news:i7fgd1t6gm6jd3uhp9fb4ssnh1cd11nk3j@4ax.com...
> [...]
> It might also just be the level I'm playing at, I've not gotten past
> lvl 12 yet, and the toughest "group mission" I've been on so far is
> Frostfire. Maybe as the missions get tougher, if you don't spell out
> the strategies and roles first, a few bad players can get you killed?)
Well, Frostfire is definitely about as hard as they come, at least for the <
L20 play. My highest character is only L24, so I don't know what comes
after that. :)
My experience has been that a group that is willing to patiently plan out
attacks will do MUCH better than any other group. However, a group made up
of people who understand their own strengths and weaknesses and focus on
playing to their own strengths can still do very well. I have been in such
groups where there was very little downtime (for planning or otherwise); we
just rolled through the mission, even hard ones.
In the worst groups, you've got people who don't want to wait for anything,
combined with people who have a lot of high endurance usage (and thus need
to rest often). You have players who run around failing to stay focused on
the lieutenants or bosses, or who drag a large group when it would have been
possible to pull out a smaller subset. In some cases, these poor tactics
even get one or more teammates sent to the hospital.
Those worst groups sure aren't very fun to play on. But the very worst kind
don't show up often. Usually, it's just a matter of efficiency, and if
someone does get sent to the hospital it's because they just weren't paying
attention to their own health and didn't run away fast enough (or, an
alternative track would be a player who draws all the aggression of a bunch
of high-damage attacks, and is crushed before anyone can heal him). I have
had my share of debt, but rarely is for any reason other than not taking
advantage of the liberal "run away" options (that is, bad guys just don't
follow you very far, and most cannot come close to keeping up with the
Sprint or Power Slide powers).
Finally, the penalty of being sent to the hospital just isn't that great.
The absolute worst that can ever happen to a player is that they are saddled
with debt. The debt amounts to 5% of the xp required for your current
level, which means that each time you are defeated, you just extend your
current level by 5% of the original xp requirement. You don't lose
equipment, nor do you lose any of your abilities. You play just as you
always did, it just takes you a little longer to get to the next level.
Being on a bad team certainly isn't all that fun, but it's easy enough to
just quit the team and look for a better one. :)
> By the way, what is a spam heal?
Repeatedly sending the word "heal" over the team chat channel?
Pete
date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:28:33 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
news:%23aLTuTZiFHA.2180@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> [...]
> Finally, the penalty of being sent to the hospital just isn't that great.
And as if to underscore that point (honest, I didn't do this on purpose)...
I managed to be defeated NINE times today. Seven while I was doing some
experimenting to see just how far past my level my blaster can fight, and
another two on missions with friends (yeah, we got a little sloppy a couple
of times).
I'm all out of debt now. I was able to clear all of that debt before
logging out for the evening. Yes, it's true had I not had the debt, I would
be a level higher by now. Oh well. :) Still, it's just not a huge
penalty.
Today was a very unusual day. I can often go several play sessions without
being defeated. But even on a day like today, when everything seems to go
wrong, it's just not that big of a deal.
Pete
date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 00:50:45 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Stef" wrote in message news:daeqpq$6k5$1@iruka.swcp.com...
> Peter Duniho wrote:
>>I myself am just starting a month-long comparison between DSL and cable
>>modem.
>
> I'm looking forward to that, Peter... please post it here.
Okay, here you go. As promised, there isn't any really "techie" data here.
I didn't bother looking too much at latency, but online games (primarily
City of Heroes and Neverwinter Nights...one a server-based game, the other a
peer-to-peer game) played just fine with both cable modem and DSL. Routing
and latency is so site-specific anyway that the information would only
really be useful to people who live near me (as far as I know, none of them
read this newsgroup :) ).
So, I wrote up as best I could my impressions as an average consumer.
DSL vs Cable
Download speed: Cable modem
The cable modem is advertised as providing 4.0 Mbps download, and I
consistently saw speeds between 6.0 and 7.0 Mbps using the online connection
speed tests (I used tests available at www.broadbandreports.com and from my
own ISP, Infinity Internet). This is throughput too; broadband connections
have a specific data rate, but the net throughput is always lower because of
overhead in the communications protocols (not all of the data being sent is
the data you wind up using in the end).
The DSL VERY consistently turned in net download rates of 2.85 Mbps, give or
take a few hundredths. This is completely consistent with the advertised
3.0 Mbps, once protocol overhead is taken into account.
The interesting thing is that the DSL speed never wavered. Any measured
speed difference from one test to another was always very tiny, and almost
certainly could be attributed to minor variations in server and/or client
performance, rather than being a connection speed issue. On the other hand,
while the cable modem was usually over 6.0 Mbps, it did occasionally drop
significantly from that (it was even below the advertised 4.0 Mbps at least
once), and in any case did vary widely. Two back-to-back speed tests almost
never returned a speed even within 10% of each other.
Of a more practical concern is whether the speed difference really mattered
that much. I did a variety of download tests using different services, both
peer-to-peer (always BitTorrent) and direct from servers. I frequently
(well over half the time) found that the bottleneck was not my Internet
connection, but rather the server(s). Even with BitTorrent, which should
theoretically max out your Internet connection by attaching to as many slow
servers as are required to simulate a fast server, I often found download
speeds in the neighborhood of 50-100Kbps (which very roughly equates to
512Kbps up to about 1.0 Mbps).
Another factor is that I am frequently using my wireless connection, which
due to the poor signal I'm often experiencing, also limits my download
speeds. Of course, all of the bandwidth tests I did with a wired
connection, but in the real world I'm only going to hook up the wire if I've
got a particular large download *and* I think the server can keep up.
In other words, yes the cable modem consistently beat out the DSL in the
direct bandwidth tests, often turning in speeds twice as fast or more. But
in the real-world, that doesn't actually translate into much time saved each
month.
Upload speed: DSL
The cable modem is limited to 384 Mbps upload, while the DSL is limited to
768 Mbps. Both were very consistent in the speed tests about how fast they
could upload, and there's no question the DSL is faster. Of course, we
don't upload large amounts of data that often, but when we do, because the
upload is so much slower than the download, we really notice the difference.
:)
Network traffic: DSL
One interesting aspect of the comparison was watching the network activity
lights on the modems and my router. With the cable modem, the "wide area
network" activity light (that is, the Internet connection itself) was
constantly active. And I do mean constantly...it never stopped blinking.
On the other hand, with the DSL connection the WAN activity light was dark
most of the time. Obviously, when we were actually doing something on the
Internet it was blinking, but otherwise there was no traffic.
This difference is entirely predictable, given the technologies. The DSL
connection is a dedicated connection, and only traffic to your IP address
comes over it. On the other hand, the cable modem connection is shared
among neighbors. I didn't bother to run a network sniffer on the
connection, but I don't doubt that I could have easily taken a look at what
my other neighbors were up to. It's even possible that had there been any
open LAN shares, I could have connected to them.
Your mileage may vary, but personally I do prefer having a connection that's
not being barraged with irrelevant traffic all the time, and I also like not
having to worry about privacy on my side of the Internet connection (once
things go out on the Internet, all bets are off, of course).
IP address: DSL
Nominally, both services are advertised as having dynamic IP addresses.
However, the Westel DSL modem that I was provided did not come configured
correctly to play well with my existing router. I talked to a very helpful
person with my DSL ISP's technical support, who probably could have
eventually gotten things to work. But rather than waste his and my time, he
simply arranged for our DSL service to continue using the same static IP
address we've had for the last five or so years.
We don't host any full-time servers on our connection, but I do play a few
different online peer-to-peer games, and having a static IP address is more
convenient for everyone involved. I don't have to keep telling my friends a
new IP address, and they can just use the IP address that's been cached for
them in each game's lobby feature.
Added features: ???
Each service does come with its own package of included benefits. I can't
even give specifics here, but I know that the cable modem service includes
free access to online news and video feeds, while the DSL comes with various
Internet filtering software (like pop-up blockers, content filtering, etc).
Of course, for the most part, this sort of thing is available freely to
anyone, either through the operating system or other third-party web sites.
But I suppose to some people this might be a differentiating factor that
would be interesting.
It wasn't for me, so I can't provide any feedback on it.
I guess one thing that might fall into this category was simply our own
personal issue that we already have email accounts with our ISP. So in our
case, DSL had the advantage of not forcing us to change our email addresses.
On the other hand, I believe that we would get more email accounts with the
cable modem, as well as more personal web storage space (which is allocated
per email account with the cable modem). We have a separate hosted web
site, independent of our Internet connection, so this wouldn't have been an
issue for us either way.
Customer service: Cable, by a nose
Honestly, I was pleasantly surprised at the customer service for both.
There were strange or negative aspects to both, but on the whole everything
went very smoothly. I was especially impressed with Comcast's service:
their 30-day free trial included having a guy come by and actually install a
cable outlet next to our PC, and the connection worked right out of the box
(I did have to use XP's System Restore to undo their changes to my OS,
including renaming the IE browser window), and other than a brief attempt to
win me back from DSL when I called to disconnect, even that aspect went very
smoothly.
Negatives: DSL is saddled with the ISP/phone company dichotomy. My ISP is
actually quite good, in my opinion. But they aren't able to apply enough
pressure, apparently, to get the phone company to behave in a reasonable
manner. In particular, the phone company would not order the new faster
service until our old slower DSL had been disconnected. This was strictly
an administrative issue, and because they also have a delay from ordering
new service to the actual hook-up (as any utility would), that meant we were
without DSL for almost two weeks.
It was in fact this very issue that led me to go ahead and compare DSL with
the cable modem. If Verizon (the phone company) would have simply left our
old connection running until they could process the new connection and get
it hooked up, I probably would not have even bothered.
There also wasn't very good feedback from Verizon or my ISP as to when our
new DSL actually got hooked up. They shipped us a new modem, which arrived
well in advance of the hookup date. But I didn't get any confirmation from
them that our hookup had indeed happened. So when I went to install the
modem on that day and it didn't work, I was not even able to immediately
tell whether it was because of a configuration issue, or because our service
hadn't actually been installed on time. We did get that all straightened
out, but it was frustrating for a little bit, until I finally got my own
ISP's technical support on the phone (at which point, everything went
smoothly).
As far as negatives from the cable modem go, I really have to look hard to
find any. I have heard lots of horror stories, but they handled our
experience VERY well. The only thing I think is worth mentioning is getting
a second bill before the first bill was actually due, and having the second
bill have in large capital letters the statement "YOUR ACCOUNT IS NOW PAST
DUE". Of course, our account was NOT past due. But a) they didn't actually
charge us any additional fees as a result (ie, no harm, no foul :) ), and b)
we didn't have to pay either bill anyway, because we cancelled before the
end of our 30-day trial.
Outages: tie
I had no outages with either service, as far as I know. We did lose our
Internet connection a few times over the last month, but this is something
that used to happen before, and which could always be fixed by rebooting our
own router. I think it's much more likely our outages were caused 100% by
the buggy software in our Linksys router, than by any problems with either
broadband service.
Price: DSL
That is, DSL wins in an absolute comparison. Pre-paid for a year, it's only
$40/month, while the cable modem is $55/month. Of course, this varies
widely from market to market. Even in our own region, depending on the
phone carrier the DSL can cost anywhere between $15/month up to the
$40/month we're paying. The other thing is that we don't actually subscribe
to cable TV; if we did, the cable modem would be only $45/month.
In a relative "bandwidth per dollar" comparison, cable modem comes out ahead
for downloads. Depending on your relative upload and download activity, the
faster DSL upload speed might or might not change that. But in the end,
it's my opinion that what you really see are the dollars that leave your
bank account each month. You could probably rationalize the faster cable
modem by arguing that it's only $9/Mbps versus the DSL's $13/Mbps (using the
frequently achievable 6 Mbps found with the cable modem), but that
comparison would ignore the lower advertised rate on the cable modem, as
well as the real-world issues limiting just how often you can take advantage
of a 6 Mbps connection.
Generally, the speed difference is only going to matter when downloading
something *really* big, in which case you're probably not going to just sit
there and watch it anyway. You'll start it going, and then go on with your
day. What really matters is simply how much you're spending each month, and
DSL is definitely less (and is MUCH less if you're not already a cable modem
user).
Bottom line:
We decided to stick with our DSL provider. We're very happy to have had the
opportunity to compare the DSL and cable modem directly; it helped us make a
much better informed decision. And it's clear that the cable modem may well
be a good solution for many people. Faster download speeds, and having just
one company to deal with, can make for a more pleasurable experience. And
of course, if you're setting up new service you don't really care whether
you're keeping your old email addreses or not.
But in our case, the download speed was the ONLY aspect of the cable modem
that was better, and it didn't really seem to affect our real-world,
day-to-day operations. Given the several other significant advantages DSL
has over the cable modem, including price, DSL was the winning choice for
us.
date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:58:53 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
"Justin H." wrote in message
news:eNkalQxkFHA.2916@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> [...]
> One, the cable modem speed variance. For your applications, it probably
> didn't matter, but for anything that's susceptible to jitter, it sounds
> like it'd be death on a stick. Ugh.
It depends on the application. An application that both requires MORE
bandwidth than the maximum available even on cable modem, and which is
susceptible to "jitter" would have a problem. I am not aware of any
mainstream applications like that however.
Generally, either an application consumes your full bandwidth, but doesn't
really care much whether the bandwidth ebbs and flows (file download, for
example), or it throttles itself, either because it simply doesn't require
more bandwidth (online games), or because it does want to ensure a smooth
user experience (streaming video).
Got any examples of a real-world situation in which the speed variation of a
cable modem would actually be a problem?
> Two, I'm surprised you got to talk to Verizon tech support. They seem to
> have universally denied the existence of the end user.
I didn't talk to Verizon tech support. I talked to Infinity Internet's tech
support. Big difference. :)
Pete
date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 19:31:38 -0700
author: Peter Duniho
Re: OT - DSL vs. Dialup question
Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Justin H." wrote in message
> news:eNkalQxkFHA.2916@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>
>>[...]
>>One, the cable modem speed variance. For your applications, it probably
>>didn't matter, but for anything that's susceptible to jitter, it sounds
>>like it'd be death on a stick. Ugh.
>
>
> It depends on the application. An application that both requires MORE
> bandwidth than the maximum available even on cable modem, and which is
> susceptible to "jitter" would have a problem. I am not aware of any
> mainstream applications like that however.
>
> Generally, either an application consumes your full bandwidth, but doesn't
> really care much whether the bandwidth ebbs and flows (file download, for
> example), or it throttles itself, either because it simply doesn't require
> more bandwidth (online games), or because it does want to ensure a smooth
> user experience (streaming video).
>
> Got any examples of a real-world situation in which the speed variation of a
> cable modem would actually be a problem?
Honestly, it depends on how deep the "up and downing" (as a tech friend
of mine puts it) goes. Is it just noticeable when the bandwidth is
filled or does it jitter no matter how much bandwidth you consume? As
for an example, probably not something you or I would use at home, but a
lot of real-time apps don't suffer jitter well.
>>Two, I'm surprised you got to talk to Verizon tech support. They seem to
>>have universally denied the existence of the end user.
>
>
> I didn't talk to Verizon tech support. I talked to Infinity Internet's tech
> support. Big difference. :)
Ah. I got the impression you somehow got in touch with Verizon first.
Yes, definitely a big difference. :-)
Justin H.
date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 18:10:33 -0700
author: Justin H.
|
