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date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:04:13 +0530,
group: microsoft.public.windowsmedia.player
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To WAV or not to WAV
Hi. I looked for a sticky FAQ on this topic since it's such a universal
pain but am new to the forum and found none. I saw the thread entitled
"WMP 11 Library does not add all wav files" but did not get enough
knowledge from it to solve my problem.
WHERE THINGS STAND RIGHT NOW:
I have ripped all my CDs to WAV format. These files reside on my WHS
where I access them from several different PCs running various flavors
of Windows. As the experienced among you know, the media information
(track info, album art, etc.) is not easily managed for WAV files in
WMP. I have also converted the files to (lossy) WMA files so that they
can be delivered through streaming.
HERE ARE MY OBJECTIVES:
1) Maintain a single repository for all my CD audio that makes it
accessible to Windows PCs and Windows Media
Extenders/Conect/Ecosystem/whatever-it-is-called-this-week.
2) Go through the online retrieval of album art, track names, and
other misc metadata ONCE and have it be retained for display in the WMP
Library even when I connect from a new machine.
3) Archive my audio. This means I want to be able to recreate the CD
if necessary.
4) I want my ratings to be global to all devices.
5) I want ONE file per song. I currently have a WAV and a (lossy) WMA
per song. I do not care how big the file is, I just never want to have
to reconcile different versions.
The obvious problems are that if I take the direct approach to
objective 3 (that being the use of WAV files) I create havoc in solving
objective 2. Similarly, I have concerns that going to a lossless format
other than WAV might create problems with objective 1 (or even #3 or
#4).
To save people educating me unnecessarily, here is what I understand to
be true:
1) WMP embeds some metadata into WAV files when they are ripped. It
does not ever update that metadata by any means. I do not know what
format this rip-time metadata is in or complies with.
2) Other products DO embed metadata into WAV files (some using dubious
embed structures). I do not know if any products exist that use a
metadata embedding scheme that is 100% compatible with WMP/extenders. I
do not know if any of these products do the complete WMP Media
Information schema nor whether they automate lookups/fillins, etc.
3) When WMP rips CDs, it sometimes fails to collect metadata for Track
1. I presume this is because the track is done ripping before the album
lookup completes. I have hundreds of albums that ripped with Track 1
tagged as unknown and other tracks fully tagged. Unfortunately, once it
is ripped, nothing in WMP ever corrects the omission (correlating with
truth #1 above).
4) I converted a WAV to a lossless format several years ago and
converted it back, the result being something other than bit-for-bit
identical to the original. I do not know of any format that allows for
convert-FROM-wav followed by convert-TO-wav to produce a file identical
to the original (not saying it does not exist, just saying I don't know
of it). This degree of identicality is my test for archival (objective
3).
If I am mistaken on any of the above, PLEASE let me know as I am
drawing conclusions based on these assumptions.
Here are the ideas that come to mind:
*a*) Identify the tagging method WMP recognizes, get a compatible
editor and retag all those Track 1 files so that WMP will tend to
recognize upon import. This depends on Windows Media extenders
recognizing those tags but that seems within the realm of possibility.
*b*) Switch to a lossless format that has standardized metadata tagging
and which is recognized by all the devices and which is also reversible
to bit-for-bit identical wav files (which should be possible if the
lossless format uses PCM data internally). This seems more future-proof
than (a) if the lossless format is popular.
*So... What do I need to know that I don't (yet) and what do you
recommend?*
Thanks!
--
samene
------------------------------------------------------------------------
samene's Profile: http://forums.techarena.in/members/111400.htm
View this thread: http://forums.techarena.in/media-player/1208146.htm
http://forums.techarena.in
date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:04:13 +0530
author: samene
RE: To WAV or not to WAV
>>I converted a WAV to a lossless format several years ago and
converted it back, the result being something other than bit-for-bit
identical to the original.
>>
I wonder if this is valid.
If this is about differences in file size, this is normal. Often on
converting, some space is reserved in the header to allow adding tags without
rewriting the entire file.
If the audio part is different then there is an error in the conversion
process.
Personally I find it hard to believe that a popular converter like
dbPoweramp would contain such an error.
A good test is to load the original en the converted one in a audio editor.
Substract the two and the result should be zero.
I think Hydrogenaudio might be a good place to learn more about this
phenomenon.
An alternative might be not to tag but to use cue sheets
They appear in WMP as playlist.
http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/WAV_KB.htm
"samene" wrote:
>
> Hi. I looked for a sticky FAQ on this topic since it's such a universal
> pain but am new to the forum and found none. I saw the thread entitled
> "WMP 11 Library does not add all wav files" but did not get enough
> knowledge from it to solve my problem.
>
> WHERE THINGS STAND RIGHT NOW:
> I have ripped all my CDs to WAV format. These files reside on my WHS
> where I access them from several different PCs running various flavors
> of Windows. As the experienced among you know, the media information
> (track info, album art, etc.) is not easily managed for WAV files in
> WMP. I have also converted the files to (lossy) WMA files so that they
> can be delivered through streaming.
>
> HERE ARE MY OBJECTIVES:
> 1) Maintain a single repository for all my CD audio that makes it
> accessible to Windows PCs and Windows Media
> Extenders/Conect/Ecosystem/whatever-it-is-called-this-week.
> 2) Go through the online retrieval of album art, track names, and
> other misc metadata ONCE and have it be retained for display in the WMP
> Library even when I connect from a new machine.
> 3) Archive my audio. This means I want to be able to recreate the CD
> if necessary.
> 4) I want my ratings to be global to all devices.
> 5) I want ONE file per song. I currently have a WAV and a (lossy) WMA
> per song. I do not care how big the file is, I just never want to have
> to reconcile different versions.
>
> The obvious problems are that if I take the direct approach to
> objective 3 (that being the use of WAV files) I create havoc in solving
> objective 2. Similarly, I have concerns that going to a lossless format
> other than WAV might create problems with objective 1 (or even #3 or
> #4).
>
> To save people educating me unnecessarily, here is what I understand to
> be true:
> 1) WMP embeds some metadata into WAV files when they are ripped. It
> does not ever update that metadata by any means. I do not know what
> format this rip-time metadata is in or complies with.
> 2) Other products DO embed metadata into WAV files (some using dubious
> embed structures). I do not know if any products exist that use a
> metadata embedding scheme that is 100% compatible with WMP/extenders. I
> do not know if any of these products do the complete WMP Media
> Information schema nor whether they automate lookups/fillins, etc.
> 3) When WMP rips CDs, it sometimes fails to collect metadata for Track
> 1. I presume this is because the track is done ripping before the album
> lookup completes. I have hundreds of albums that ripped with Track 1
> tagged as unknown and other tracks fully tagged. Unfortunately, once it
> is ripped, nothing in WMP ever corrects the omission (correlating with
> truth #1 above).
> 4) I converted a WAV to a lossless format several years ago and
> converted it back, the result being something other than bit-for-bit
> identical to the original. I do not know of any format that allows for
> convert-FROM-wav followed by convert-TO-wav to produce a file identical
> to the original (not saying it does not exist, just saying I don't know
> of it). This degree of identicality is my test for archival (objective
> 3).
>
> If I am mistaken on any of the above, PLEASE let me know as I am
> drawing conclusions based on these assumptions.
>
> Here are the ideas that come to mind:
> *a*) Identify the tagging method WMP recognizes, get a compatible
> editor and retag all those Track 1 files so that WMP will tend to
> recognize upon import. This depends on Windows Media extenders
> recognizing those tags but that seems within the realm of possibility.
> *b*) Switch to a lossless format that has standardized metadata tagging
> and which is recognized by all the devices and which is also reversible
> to bit-for-bit identical wav files (which should be possible if the
> lossless format uses PCM data internally). This seems more future-proof
> than (a) if the lossless format is popular.
>
> *So... What do I need to know that I don't (yet) and what do you
> recommend?*
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> --
> samene
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> samene's Profile: http://forums.techarena.in/members/111400.htm
> View this thread: http://forums.techarena.in/media-player/1208146.htm
>
> http://forums.techarena.in
>
>
date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 10:27:01 -0700
author: Vincent
RE: To WAV or not to WAV
This Hydrogenaudio thread might be interesting; it's a discussion about
finding the right losless format:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=46551
Also relevant:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=44874
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=45161
Regards
Tim De Baets
"Vincent" wrote:
> >>I converted a WAV to a lossless format several years ago and
> converted it back, the result being something other than bit-for-bit
> identical to the original.
> >>
>
> I wonder if this is valid.
> If this is about differences in file size, this is normal. Often on
> converting, some space is reserved in the header to allow adding tags without
> rewriting the entire file.
> If the audio part is different then there is an error in the conversion
> process.
> Personally I find it hard to believe that a popular converter like
> dbPoweramp would contain such an error.
> A good test is to load the original en the converted one in a audio editor.
> Substract the two and the result should be zero.
> I think Hydrogenaudio might be a good place to learn more about this
> phenomenon.
>
> An alternative might be not to tag but to use cue sheets
> They appear in WMP as playlist.
> http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/WAV_KB.htm
>
>
> "samene" wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi. I looked for a sticky FAQ on this topic since it's such a universal
> > pain but am new to the forum and found none. I saw the thread entitled
> > "WMP 11 Library does not add all wav files" but did not get enough
> > knowledge from it to solve my problem.
> >
> > WHERE THINGS STAND RIGHT NOW:
> > I have ripped all my CDs to WAV format. These files reside on my WHS
> > where I access them from several different PCs running various flavors
> > of Windows. As the experienced among you know, the media information
> > (track info, album art, etc.) is not easily managed for WAV files in
> > WMP. I have also converted the files to (lossy) WMA files so that they
> > can be delivered through streaming.
> >
> > HERE ARE MY OBJECTIVES:
> > 1) Maintain a single repository for all my CD audio that makes it
> > accessible to Windows PCs and Windows Media
> > Extenders/Conect/Ecosystem/whatever-it-is-called-this-week.
> > 2) Go through the online retrieval of album art, track names, and
> > other misc metadata ONCE and have it be retained for display in the WMP
> > Library even when I connect from a new machine.
> > 3) Archive my audio. This means I want to be able to recreate the CD
> > if necessary.
> > 4) I want my ratings to be global to all devices.
> > 5) I want ONE file per song. I currently have a WAV and a (lossy) WMA
> > per song. I do not care how big the file is, I just never want to have
> > to reconcile different versions.
> >
> > The obvious problems are that if I take the direct approach to
> > objective 3 (that being the use of WAV files) I create havoc in solving
> > objective 2. Similarly, I have concerns that going to a lossless format
> > other than WAV might create problems with objective 1 (or even #3 or
> > #4).
> >
> > To save people educating me unnecessarily, here is what I understand to
> > be true:
> > 1) WMP embeds some metadata into WAV files when they are ripped. It
> > does not ever update that metadata by any means. I do not know what
> > format this rip-time metadata is in or complies with.
> > 2) Other products DO embed metadata into WAV files (some using dubious
> > embed structures). I do not know if any products exist that use a
> > metadata embedding scheme that is 100% compatible with WMP/extenders. I
> > do not know if any of these products do the complete WMP Media
> > Information schema nor whether they automate lookups/fillins, etc.
> > 3) When WMP rips CDs, it sometimes fails to collect metadata for Track
> > 1. I presume this is because the track is done ripping before the album
> > lookup completes. I have hundreds of albums that ripped with Track 1
> > tagged as unknown and other tracks fully tagged. Unfortunately, once it
> > is ripped, nothing in WMP ever corrects the omission (correlating with
> > truth #1 above).
> > 4) I converted a WAV to a lossless format several years ago and
> > converted it back, the result being something other than bit-for-bit
> > identical to the original. I do not know of any format that allows for
> > convert-FROM-wav followed by convert-TO-wav to produce a file identical
> > to the original (not saying it does not exist, just saying I don't know
> > of it). This degree of identicality is my test for archival (objective
> > 3).
> >
> > If I am mistaken on any of the above, PLEASE let me know as I am
> > drawing conclusions based on these assumptions.
> >
> > Here are the ideas that come to mind:
> > *a*) Identify the tagging method WMP recognizes, get a compatible
> > editor and retag all those Track 1 files so that WMP will tend to
> > recognize upon import. This depends on Windows Media extenders
> > recognizing those tags but that seems within the realm of possibility.
> > *b*) Switch to a lossless format that has standardized metadata tagging
> > and which is recognized by all the devices and which is also reversible
> > to bit-for-bit identical wav files (which should be possible if the
> > lossless format uses PCM data internally). This seems more future-proof
> > than (a) if the lossless format is popular.
> >
> > *So... What do I need to know that I don't (yet) and what do you
> > recommend?*
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> > --
> > samene
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > samene's Profile: http://forums.techarena.in/members/111400.htm
> > View this thread: http://forums.techarena.in/media-player/1208146.htm
> >
> > http://forums.techarena.in
> >
> >
date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 11:08:01 -0700
author: Tim De Baets
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