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date: 9 May 2006 12:46:44 -0700,    group: microsoft.public.exchange.clustering        back       


Huge Project   
Hello everyone.
my company got a project to plan and implement ms exchange messaging
service for an enterprise which will support up to 10'000 users,
i was thinking of the following
2 cluster symantec SGS
1 cluster AD
2 NLB exchange 2003 FE's
4 Active and 2 Passive cluster BE
1 SAN 10 TB Storage, devided to two 5 TB one active and one as
failover.
Am still not sure if i really need to have AD cluster or even if this
setup will fulfill the project needs.
all servers will be HP ProLiant DL585 with 4 GB of RAM.
- would i be able to devide 10'000 users among these 4 active servers
and how would the passive server work in this case.
am I going in the right path?
Any help in this issue will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
date: 9 May 2006 12:46:44 -0700   author:   unknown

Re: Huge Project   
This sounds like a pretty tall order for a news group. AD/Exchange design 
involves an assessment, design, proof of concept and implementation phases. 
Skipping any of these and you could be risking your future.

-- 
----------
Hope It Helps!

dw
_______________________________
Don Wilwol
Distributed Application Technologies.
dwilwol(DELETE)@datbusiness.com
www.AtTheDataCenter.com
www.skysphere.com
www.skyphere.com

 wrote in message 
news:1147204004.471590.300390@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hello everyone.
> my company got a project to plan and implement ms exchange messaging
> service for an enterprise which will support up to 10'000 users,
> i was thinking of the following
> 2 cluster symantec SGS
> 1 cluster AD
> 2 NLB exchange 2003 FE's
> 4 Active and 2 Passive cluster BE
> 1 SAN 10 TB Storage, devided to two 5 TB one active and one as
> failover.
> Am still not sure if i really need to have AD cluster or even if this
> setup will fulfill the project needs.
> all servers will be HP ProLiant DL585 with 4 GB of RAM.
> - would i be able to devide 10'000 users among these 4 active servers
> and how would the passive server work in this case.
> am I going in the right path?
> Any help in this issue will be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you
>
date: Tue, 9 May 2006 16:14:13 -0400   author:   Don Wilwol

Re: Huge Project   
Agreed. Plus clustering DC's is never a good idea.

Cheers,

Rodney R. Fournier

MVP - Windows Server - Clustering
http://www.nw-america.com - Clustering Website
http://msmvps.com/clustering - Blog
http://www.clusterhelp.com - Cluster Training
ClusterHelp.com is a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner


"Don Wilwol"  wrote in message 
news:e64prU6cGHA.1272@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> This sounds like a pretty tall order for a news group. AD/Exchange design 
> involves an assessment, design, proof of concept and implementation 
> phases. Skipping any of these and you could be risking your future.
>
> -- 
> ----------
> Hope It Helps!
>
> dw
> _______________________________
> Don Wilwol
> Distributed Application Technologies.
> dwilwol(DELETE)@datbusiness.com
> www.AtTheDataCenter.com
> www.skysphere.com
> www.skyphere.com
>
>  wrote in message 
> news:1147204004.471590.300390@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Hello everyone.
>> my company got a project to plan and implement ms exchange messaging
>> service for an enterprise which will support up to 10'000 users,
>> i was thinking of the following
>> 2 cluster symantec SGS
>> 1 cluster AD
>> 2 NLB exchange 2003 FE's
>> 4 Active and 2 Passive cluster BE
>> 1 SAN 10 TB Storage, devided to two 5 TB one active and one as
>> failover.
>> Am still not sure if i really need to have AD cluster or even if this
>> setup will fulfill the project needs.
>> all servers will be HP ProLiant DL585 with 4 GB of RAM.
>> - would i be able to devide 10'000 users among these 4 active servers
>> and how would the passive server work in this case.
>> am I going in the right path?
>> Any help in this issue will be greatly appreciated.
>> Thank you
>>
>
>
date: Tue, 9 May 2006 15:53:35 -0500   author:   Rodney R. Fournier [MVP]

Re: Huge Project   
> Agreed. Plus clustering DC's is never a good idea.

And a waste of some really cool hardware :-)


> Cheers,
>
> Rodney R. Fournier
>
> MVP - Windows Server - Clustering
> http://www.nw-america.com - Clustering Website
> http://msmvps.com/clustering - Blog
> http://www.clusterhelp.com - Cluster Training
> ClusterHelp.com is a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner
>
>
> "Don Wilwol"  wrote in message 
> news:e64prU6cGHA.1272@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>> This sounds like a pretty tall order for a news group. AD/Exchange design 
>> involves an assessment, design, proof of concept and implementation 
>> phases. Skipping any of these and you could be risking your future.
>>
>> -- 
>> ----------
>> Hope It Helps!
>>
>> dw
>> _______________________________
>> Don Wilwol
>> Distributed Application Technologies.
>> dwilwol(DELETE)@datbusiness.com
>> www.AtTheDataCenter.com
>> www.skysphere.com
>> www.skyphere.com
>>
>>  wrote in message 
>> news:1147204004.471590.300390@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hello everyone.
>>> my company got a project to plan and implement ms exchange messaging
>>> service for an enterprise which will support up to 10'000 users,
>>> i was thinking of the following
>>> 2 cluster symantec SGS
>>> 1 cluster AD
>>> 2 NLB exchange 2003 FE's
>>> 4 Active and 2 Passive cluster BE
>>> 1 SAN 10 TB Storage, devided to two 5 TB one active and one as
>>> failover.
>>> Am still not sure if i really need to have AD cluster or even if this
>>> setup will fulfill the project needs.
>>> all servers will be HP ProLiant DL585 with 4 GB of RAM.
>>> - would i be able to devide 10'000 users among these 4 active servers
>>> and how would the passive server work in this case.
>>> am I going in the right path?
>>> Any help in this issue will be greatly appreciated.
>>> Thank you
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
date: Tue, 9 May 2006 18:54:23 -0400   author:   Don Wilwol donWilwol@(EMAIL)yahoo.com

Re: Huge Project   
Yes,
Thank you everyone, I wasn't sure about clustering AD.
What if a government Agency wants to make mailing system to support up
to 10'000'000 users??!!!
this is driving Me, Microsoft and HP crazy.
they want it to be exchange environment,
How many servers would we need? 2500 servers ?
how would this thing work?
is it even possible to have that much usres in exchange environment.
they are looking for server farm.
any idea?
date: 10 May 2006 01:03:02 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
"Shaheen"  wrote in message 
news:1147248182.761955.205350@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Yes,
> Thank you everyone, I wasn't sure about clustering AD.
> What if a government Agency wants to make mailing system to support up
> to 10'000'000 users??!!!
> this is driving Me, Microsoft and HP crazy.
> they want it to be exchange environment,
> How many servers would we need? 2500 servers ?
> how would this thing work?
> is it even possible to have that much usres in exchange environment.
> they are looking for server farm.
> any idea?
>
excuse me 10'000 or 10'000'000 !?
date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:07:36 +0200   author:   MMC

Re: Huge Project   
the 10'000 users is the easy one,
there is another project which will support up 10'000'000 users
yes this is true 10'000'000 users, ten million users
date: 10 May 2006 03:50:30 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
There really is a need in this project(s) for a professional services 
organization with AD/Exchange design experience.

Just my 2 cents worth.

-- 
--------
Hope It Helps!

dw
_______________________________
Don Wilwol
Distributed Application Technologies.
dwilwol(DELETE)@datbusiness.com
www.AtTheDataCenter.com  (personal website)
www.skysphere.com         (hosting available)
"Shaheen"  wrote in message 
news:1147258230.505435.192110@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> the 10'000 users is the easy one,
> there is another project which will support up 10'000'000 users
> yes this is true 10'000'000 users, ten million users
>
date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:21:52 -0400   author:   Don Wilwol donWilwol@(EMAIL)yahoo.com

Re: Huge Project   
Clustering AD is not needed IMO


 wrote in message 
news:1147204004.471590.300390@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hello everyone.
> my company got a project to plan and implement ms exchange messaging
> service for an enterprise which will support up to 10'000 users,
> i was thinking of the following
> 2 cluster symantec SGS
> 1 cluster AD
> 2 NLB exchange 2003 FE's
> 4 Active and 2 Passive cluster BE
> 1 SAN 10 TB Storage, devided to two 5 TB one active and one as
> failover.
> Am still not sure if i really need to have AD cluster or even if this
> setup will fulfill the project needs.
> all servers will be HP ProLiant DL585 with 4 GB of RAM.
> - would i be able to devide 10'000 users among these 4 active servers
> and how would the passive server work in this case.
> am I going in the right path?
> Any help in this issue will be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you
>
date: Wed, 10 May 2006 21:32:37 +1000   author:   Andrew Sword [MVP]

Re: Huge Project   
Large companies are envloved,
Microsoft gave us a solution which will support up to 1 million users.
am not sure if exchange can handle 10 million.
date: 10 May 2006 06:09:29 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
On Wed, 10 May 2006 01:03:02 -0700, Shaheen wrote:

> Yes,
> Thank you everyone, I wasn't sure about clustering AD.
> What if a government Agency wants to make mailing system to support up
> to 10'000'000 users??!!!

  A system like this requires a serious amount of planning. 
You need to answer a few key questions:

* How many concurrent users will you have?
* Are the users all in the same timezone?
* How much storage per user will you allocate?
* You'll need a decent SAN design as well. What will that be?
* Do you have statistics for your client workload behavior.
* What performance metrics have you provided to your consultants?
* What parallel filesystem have the consultants proposed for the SAN?

-Phil Carinhas
-- 
  Fortuitous Technologies Inc - http://fortuitous.com 
  Performance Engineering, Capacity Planning & Design
date: Wed, 10 May 2006 14:54:20 GMT   author:   Fortuitous Technologies

Re: Huge Project   
* How many concurrent users will you have - Planned for 2-3 million per
day
* Are the users all in the same timezone yes the same time zon
* How much storage per user will you allocate 3mb and customizable
* You'll need a decent SAN design as well. What will that be SAN no
problems as much as it needs
* Do you have statistics for your client workload behavior This is a
from scrach project
* What performance metrics have you provided to your consultants -
messaging service for up to ten million users
date: 10 May 2006 09:54:57 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
Ok, just don't cluster a DC. You should have enough money in the project to 
buy dedicated DC/GC's.

Cheers,

Rodney R. Fournier

MVP - Windows Server - Clustering
http://www.nw-america.com - Clustering Website
http://msmvps.com/clustering - Blog
http://www.clusterhelp.com - Cluster Training
ClusterHelp.com is a Microsoft Certified Gold Partner


"Shaheen"  wrote in message 
news:1147266569.813132.229110@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Large companies are envloved,
> Microsoft gave us a solution which will support up to 1 million users.
> am not sure if exchange can handle 10 million.
>
date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:08:25 -0500   author:   Rodney R. Fournier [MVP]

Re: Huge Project   
I've seen 4.  10 is certainly within the relm of possibility.




"Shaheen"  wrote in message 
news:1147266569.813132.229110@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Large companies are envloved,
> Microsoft gave us a solution which will support up to 1 million users.
> am not sure if exchange can handle 10 million.
>
date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:45:46 -0700   author:   John Fullbright [MVP]

Re: Huge Project   
Ok, everyone
thought you might be intrested in seeing the Final Diagram
for the 10'000 users Exchange, here is the link
http://pages.google.com/edit/wael.shaheen/home
however, 10'000'000 users solution is not yet finalized
Regards
date: 11 May 2006 03:56:21 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
Ok everyone,
thought you might be intrested in seeing how will the final diagram for
the 10'000 users exchange looks like
here is the link http://wael.shaheen.googlepages.com/home
However, the 10'000'000 users project is not finalized yet.
regards
date: 11 May 2006 04:00:41 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
What ever you do make sure you spec the storage correctly to ensure it will 
handle the IOPS required by the users, more problems are caused by poorly 
designed storage.

-- 
Mark Fugatt
Microsoft Limited

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

 wrote in message 
news:1147204004.471590.300390@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hello everyone.
> my company got a project to plan and implement ms exchange messaging
> service for an enterprise which will support up to 10'000 users,
> i was thinking of the following
> 2 cluster symantec SGS
> 1 cluster AD
> 2 NLB exchange 2003 FE's
> 4 Active and 2 Passive cluster BE
> 1 SAN 10 TB Storage, devided to two 5 TB one active and one as
> failover.
> Am still not sure if i really need to have AD cluster or even if this
> setup will fulfill the project needs.
> all servers will be HP ProLiant DL585 with 4 GB of RAM.
> - would i be able to devide 10'000 users among these 4 active servers
> and how would the passive server work in this case.
> am I going in the right path?
> Any help in this issue will be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you
>
date: Fri, 12 May 2006 02:28:04 +0100   author:   Mark Fugatt [MSFT]

Re: Huge Project   
Storage is a big concern,
I was worried untill I found this wonderful piece of information on MS
technet site.
Best practice configuring the storage for BE's
http://search.microsoft.com/results.aspx?mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&s6=on&q=configuring+storage
But the question is,
Do I really need separate SAN for SQL cluster?
am thinking about 12 TB SAN would it be enough to handle both SQL and
BE's?
date: 12 May 2006 04:50:45 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
Storage is a big concern,
I was worried untill I found this wonderful piece of information on MS
technet site.
Best practice configuring the storage for BE's
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/exchange/guides/E2k3HighAvGuide/c1804c14-c099-4207-b6b9-de5bda972b76.mspx?mfr=true

But the question is,
Do I really need separate SAN for SQL cluster?
am thinking about 12 TB SAN would it be enough to handle both SQL and
BE's?
date: 12 May 2006 04:53:07 -0700   author:   Shaheen

Re: Huge Project   
U sally it is considered a best practice to give Exchange its own SAN. 
80% of your cost are usually SAN related.  Getting the best SAN 
performance available is usually your best bet.

Jeff


Shaheen wrote:
> Storage is a big concern,
> I was worried untill I found this wonderful piece of information on MS
> technet site.
> Best practice configuring the storage for BE's
> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/exchange/guides/E2k3HighAvGuide/c1804c14-c099-4207-b6b9-de5bda972b76.mspx?mfr=true
> 
> But the question is,
> Do I really need separate SAN for SQL cluster?
> am thinking about 12 TB SAN would it be enough to handle both SQL and
> BE's?
>
date: Fri, 12 May 2006 11:17:05 -0400   author:   Jeff Senter

Re: Huge Project   
When you design storage, the two parameters you are most concerned with are 
space and performance.  For a storage subsystem in a multicluster design, 
you also have to worry about the impact of comingling.  Comingling is where 
IO against one LUN negatively impacts IO against other LUNs that share the 
same physical spindles.

Exchange and SQL are both applications where performance is the primary 
factor determining spindle count, not space.  You've made a statement of 
required space (presumably usable space, not raw space), but have given no 
indication of the performance requirement or how you would prevent 
comingling.

As an example, let's use a FAS980C.  If we assume 10,000 users @ 1 IOP/user 
and 100% concurrency, then the IOPS requirement for the databases is 10,000, 
for the logs, 1,000, and for SMTP 500.  To this you add the overhead for 
backup/replication and other backend processes.  Assuming a 100mb mailbox 
size, a 5% change delta, and a 4 hour transfer window, that's about 1000 
IOPS.  The total performance requirement is 12500 IOPS.

To go from raw to usable space, first you have to "right size" the drives. 
This is necessary because the capacity of drives is stated in multiples of 
1000 not 1024.  A right sized 144GB drive is 133GB.  From this you subtract 
the overhead for the virtualization layer, roughly 10%.  Next you chose a 
raid type and assemble the drives into raid groups, subtracting the capacity 
of the spindles used for parity form the total.  If you will be replicating 
or backing up via snapshots there are two additional considerations; the 
space reservation and the snap reserve.  The space reservation is used to 
ensure that you can still write to the disk while a snapshot is in place. 
When a snapshot is in place, all the current blocks cannot be deallocated, 
so each write consumes net new space.  It can be 100% or a fraction thereof 
depending on the specifics of your environment.  The snap reservation is 
space reserved to hold the change delta between snapshots times the number 
of snapshots you will retain.  Generally, if you require 12TB usable, then 
the RAW capacity will be on the order of 26TB.  At 144G  15K FC drives, 
that's about 14 - 16 shelves.

Comingling is mitigated in a couple of different ways.  First, you can use 
physical isolation of spindles by creating seperate aggregates for logs and 
databases.  The raid group is the basic unit of storage.  An aggregate is a 
pool of storage that consists of one or more raid groups.  From the 
aggregate you carve flexvols, or chunks of storage that are stiped across 
all spindles in the aggregate.  A flexvol can contain one or more LUNs.  The 
second way to mitigate comingling is though a Control of Service feature of 
the virtualization layer called Flexshare.  With Flexshare, you weight the 
command queue for each volume, giving it a percentage of available IO.

If you wanted to put Exchange and SQL on the same SAN, you would determine 
the IO requiremnt for each, and build seperate aggregates capable of 
supporting each application.








"Shaheen"  wrote in message 
news:1147434787.613560.124140@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Storage is a big concern,
> I was worried untill I found this wonderful piece of information on MS
> technet site.
> Best practice configuring the storage for BE's
> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/exchange/guides/E2k3HighAvGuide/c1804c14-c099-4207-b6b9-de5bda972b76.mspx?mfr=true
>
> But the question is,
> Do I really need separate SAN for SQL cluster?
> am thinking about 12 TB SAN would it be enough to handle both SQL and
> BE's?
>
date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:04:56 -0700   author:   John Fullbright [MVP]

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