proper usage

proper usage

need a real quick response to this. I am writing a caption for a friend and 
he has asked me to write "the football team which defeated their rivals etc 
etc".This sounds wrong to me. I think it should be either "the team who" or 
"the team that". Anybody......................?

date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:21:03 -0000 author: eugene

Re: proper usage

eugene wrote in


> need a real quick response to this. I am writing a caption for a
> friend and he has asked me to write "the football team which defeated
> their rivals etc etc".This sounds wrong to me. I think it should be
> either "the team who" or "the team that".
> Anybody......................?

IMHO

It ain't "who".

It's "which" if it introduces a subordinate clause, e.g.
"The football team, which qualified for the Champions League, behaved
appallingly at the Christmas party."

Note the commas round the clause introduced by the "which". It should be
possible to remove the clause bracketed by the commas and still leave the
main idea intact, e.g.
"The football team behaved appallingly at the Christmas party."

It's "that" if it introduces a clause that indicates a restriction applying
only to that team, e.g.
"The football team that wins the most points ends up at the top of the
table."

HTH

-- 
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.

date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:05:01 -0000 author: PeterMcC

Re: proper usage

I believe that there is a certain amount of dispute about the correct 
"restricive relative pronoun" - "which" or "that". I frequently disagree 
with Word's grammar.

Personally - and I can't say any more than that - it just feels better to me 
this way...

I would say (despite having neither a blue car nor a garage <g>)

    The car [that] I bought yesterday, which is blue, is very fast.

    Of the two cars in my garage, the car that is blue was bought yesterday.

Re your specific caption, my preference would also be "The team that 
defeated their rivals..." (assuming that this means "[This is] the team 
that...") unless the rest of the caption suggests otherwise - such as "The 
football team, which won on Saturday, looking glorious in their new kit..."

So, if English were democratic, you'd be one vote up now :)

But my wife says I don't know grammer like wot she does...

-- 
Julian I-Do-Stuff

Some Vista stuff, but mostly just Stuff at http://berossus,blogspot.com
"eugene"  wrote in message 
news:OtSdnRsUNcs3PPbaRVnyggA@bt.com...
> need a real quick response to this. I am writing a caption for a friend 
> and he has asked me to write "the football team which defeated their 
> rivals etc etc".This sounds wrong to me. I think it should be either "the 
> team who" or "the team that". Anybody......................?

date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:11:42 +0100 author: Julian

RE: proper usage

Really depends on the context of the whole passage:
"which" and "that" can often be used correctly. Personal choice and 
consistency throughout your text.
"who" can be correct if you are infering "team" as a common noun.
Does this help? ;-)
DeanH

"eugene" wrote:

> need a real quick response to this. I am writing a caption for a friend and 
> he has asked me to write "the football team which defeated their rivals etc 
> etc".This sounds wrong to me. I think it should be either "the team who" or 
> "the team that". Anybody......................? 
> 
>

date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 04:15:00 -0800 author: DeanH

Re: proper usage

"DeanH"  wrote in message 
news:6D935B09-D0F1-4795-AC0E-97FFE6E68854@microsoft.com...
> Really depends on the context of the whole passage:
> "which" and "that" can often be used correctly. Personal choice and
> consistency throughout your text.
> "who" can be correct if you are infering "team" as a common noun.
> Does this help? ;-)
> DeanH
>
> "eugene" wrote:
>
>> need a real quick response to this. I am writing a caption for a friend 
>> and
>> he has asked me to write "the football team which defeated their rivals 
>> etc
>> etc".This sounds wrong to me. I think it should be either "the team who" 
>> or
>> "the team that". Anybody......................?
>>
>>

Thanks everybody for the advice. I ran with "who" but I now have doubts but 
as I had said, I was needing a real fast response as I was in a hell of a 
hurry!

                                Happy Christmas

date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:27:53 -0000 author: eugene

Re: proper usage

eugene wrote in


> "DeanH"  wrote in message
> news:6D935B09-D0F1-4795-AC0E-97FFE6E68854@microsoft.com...
>> Really depends on the context of the whole passage:
>> "which" and "that" can often be used correctly. Personal choice and
>> consistency throughout your text.
>> "who" can be correct if you are infering "team" as a common noun.
>> Does this help? ;-)
>> DeanH
>> 
>> "eugene" wrote:
>> 
>>> need a real quick response to this. I am writing a caption for a
>>> friend and
>>> he has asked me to write "the football team which defeated their
>>> rivals etc
>>> etc".This sounds wrong to me. I think it should be either "the team
>>> who" or
>>> "the team that". Anybody......................?
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> Thanks everybody for the advice. I ran with "who" but I now have
> doubts but as I had said, I was needing a real fast response as I was
> in a hell of a hurry!

All said and done, who/which/that cares  ;)

> Happy Christmas

And yourself.

-- 
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.

date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:48:00 -0000 author: PeterMcC